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Author Topic: I would not extend Tua  (Read 1639 times)
Pappy13
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2024, 11:04:23 am »

Lamar Jackson got his long term contract in May of last year.  Or did you mean nothing would change for Lamar's contract this offseason?
So Lamar signed his long term contract after first being subjected to the franchise tag. Yeah, I'm saying that's what Miami should do with Tua as well....next year.
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masterfins
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2024, 02:27:01 pm »

So Lamar signed his long term contract after first being subjected to the franchise tag. Yeah, I'm saying that's what Miami should do with Tua as well....next year.
 

I don't think that's what you mean.  They used the franchise tag on Lamar, BUT made a deal with him before the season started, so he was actually paid under a regular contract.  I think you want them to use the franchise tag on Tua, and pay him tag money.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2024, 05:31:00 pm »

 

I don't think that's what you mean.  They used the franchise tag on Lamar, BUT made a deal with him before the season started, so he was actually paid under a regular contract.  I think you want them to use the franchise tag on Tua, and pay him tag money.
No, not necessarily. I want them to non exclusive franchise tag Tua next year and then use that as a starting point for negotiations with his agents for a long term deal. If he doesn't like what Miami is offering, he can go try to find a better deal somewhere else...and when that fails maybe he'll come back to the table with a more reasonable offer or he can play for the franchise tag if that's what he wants to do. That's what I expect. That's pretty much what happened with Lamar Jackson if I'm not mistaken and then he signed back with Baltimore. I think people were really surprised that Lamar didn't end up signing a contract with someone else and that was for Lamar which I would have way fewer red flags with signing than with Tua. If Tua can find a better deal somewhere else, I'm ok with that. Good for him. I don't think we actually HAVE TO HAVE Tua. It would hurt to lose him, but it's not the end of the world. Maybe you have to go pick a QB in the draft the next year, but then you restart that 5 year timetable of building a team around a rookie QB again. That's not the worst thing in the world. Teams have done it. I'm not saying it's easy because it's not, but signing a long term deal with Tua doesn't guarantee you anything either and in a lot of ways ties your hands as to what else you can do.

Tua playing for the franchise tag is probably the least attractive thing for both Miami and Tua, but if that's the way it goes, then that's the way it goes. I think you take that risk.

Now maybe Tua is reasonable in his demands for a long term contract, there are QB's that have done that, but I honestly don't see that happening. That's rare. I think Tua will want the going rate for QB's in the top 5 in the league if not the top in the league and I wouldn't pay that unless Tua's coming off a Superbowl run. If that happens next year that changes everything and I would gladly pay the guy in that case. He'll have earned it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2024, 06:54:33 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2024, 06:03:03 pm »

I think Tua will want the going rate for QB's in the top 5 in the league if not the top in the league and I wouldn't pay that unless Tua's coming off a Superbowl run.
You should expect that if Tua is negotiating his contract coming off of a Super Bowl run next year, his contract will be top 1, not top 5.
It's ridiculous to think it would be anything less.

For the record, a "top 5" contract today would place him behind Burrow, Herbert, Hurts, and Lamar.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2024, 06:05:01 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Pappy13
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2024, 06:58:07 pm »

You should expect that if Tua is negotiating his contract coming off of a Super Bowl run next year, his contract will be top 1, not top 5.
I just said that if he does that give him the best QB deal in the league. I have no problem with that. He'll have earned it. Miami hasn't been to a Superbowl since '84, the last time that Miami had the best QB in the league. If the Dolphins play in the Superbowl in 2024 with Tua as their QB, win, lose or draw give him whatever he wants. I couldn't care less.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2024, 07:30:22 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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masterfins
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2024, 09:04:10 am »

No, not necessarily. I want them to non exclusive franchise tag Tua next year and then use that as a starting point for negotiations with his agents for a long term deal.

Not just for Tua, but for all players, the non exclusive franchise tag is BS; and the players union should get this removed in their next contract.  It sounds good to allow a player to go see if he can sign with another team, but in reality other teams aren't going to try and sign the guy because A) the original team can match the offer and sign him, and B) if another team does sign him for what he's worth then they also have to give up 1st round pick in addition to the salary.  But the worst part of the non exclusive franchise tag is that the team pays a much lower amount for the non exclusive tag versus the exclusive franchise tag after no other team signs him.  It puts the player in the position of wanting to sit out the season if a deal can't be worked out.

I'd rather see them just give him the regular franchise tag and get him to play a season at that rate, without being locked in for 3 years of guaranteed payments.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2024, 10:25:35 am »

Not just for Tua, but for all players, the non exclusive franchise tag is BS; and the players union should get this removed in their next contract.  It sounds good to allow a player to go see if he can sign with another team, but in reality other teams aren't going to try and sign the guy because A) the original team can match the offer and sign him, and B) if another team does sign him for what he's worth then they also have to give up 1st round pick in addition to the salary.  But the worst part of the non exclusive franchise tag is that the team pays a much lower amount for the non exclusive tag versus the exclusive franchise tag after no other team signs him.  It puts the player in the position of wanting to sit out the season if a deal can't be worked out.
While I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, the fact remains that it's a powerful tool for the teams to employ to keep salaries in check and as long as it's available Miami should use it.

For the record, I don't think the franchise tag is going anywhere. The owners aren't giving it up easily and since it impacts so few players a year there's no way that enough players are going to agree to give up enough in negotiations to get the owners to give it up. It's here to stay in my opinion.
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Dolfanalyst
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2024, 07:44:50 am »

Tua is getting paid, because Chris Grier would have to be fired to justify not paying him.  You don't not pay Tua AND keep Grier.  Either Grier made the right pick and you pay Tua, or Grier made the wrong pick and you don't pay Tua and fire Grier.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2024, 08:13:35 pm »

I'll tell you one thing, if they extend Tua and don't re-sign Wilkins, it will be one of the worst off-seasons ever.

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-dolphins-should-sign-christian-wilkins-for-long-term-contract-18922628
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 08:18:36 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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CF DolFan
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2024, 08:45:09 am »

I'll tell you one thing, if they extend Tua and don't re-sign Wilkins, it will be one of the worst off-seasons ever.

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-dolphins-should-sign-christian-wilkins-for-long-term-contract-18922628
I really hope they re-sign him but I don't think they will. People around the team think they will tag him. One thing that hurts Williams is the fact the team gave Seiler some of the money that would have  gone to him. Hard to put too much money into one position that isn't QB.
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masterfins
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2024, 01:05:07 pm »

I'll tell you one thing, if they extend Tua and don't re-sign Wilkins, it will be one of the worst off-seasons ever.

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-dolphins-should-sign-christian-wilkins-for-long-term-contract-18922628

I agree, if the choice were between keeping Tua or Wilkins I'd keep Wilkins.  Wilkins has proven himself, and can have a Jason Taylor like career; you don't let a player like that walk.

Miami has a good excuse not to extend Tua with all their cap issues, let Tua play out his 5th year and see if he continues to improve and stays healthy then you extend him next year.  If he doesn't improve then you are stuck with a Dak Prescott like QB, he'll play decent in the regular season and maybe get you into the playoffs, but will never make it to the AFC Championship game.  Miami has come a long way on this current rebuild but it's nearing it's end if they can't win playoff games.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2024, 01:14:13 pm »

These takes are puzzling to me.  I mean, it would be one thing if the Dolphins lost all the "important games" this year 17-10 or something.  But you have to put some responsibility on the defense for allowing 48 points in BUF, 56 points in BAL, and 26 points in a KC polar vortex.  How can Wilkins be a foundational defensive player that the Dolphins must keep on the same team that allowed 15 points in 3 minutes to a 6-win Titans team?  The defense had some injuries, sure, but MIA played exactly one game with a healthy OL (the game they put up 70).

MIA's defense this year was not particularly impressive; it was certainly worse than the offense by any measure.  So even if we say Wilkins was the heart & soul of the defense, why should the Dolphins break the bank to preserve an above-average-ish unit?  Why not throw Christian Wilkins back in the lake and try to draft the next Aaron Donald?  Wilkins has yet to even make a Pro Bowl and people are out here talking like he's a Ring of Honor candidate.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 01:17:36 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

masterfins
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2024, 02:38:38 pm »

These takes are puzzling to me.  I mean, it would be one thing if the Dolphins lost all the "important games" this year 17-10 or something.  But you have to put some responsibility on the defense for allowing 48 points in BUF, 56 points in BAL, and 26 points in a KC polar vortex.  How can Wilkins be a foundational defensive player that the Dolphins must keep on the same team that allowed 15 points in 3 minutes to a 6-win Titans team?  The defense had some injuries, sure, but MIA played exactly one game with a healthy OL (the game they put up 70).

MIA's defense this year was not particularly impressive; it was certainly worse than the offense by any measure.  So even if we say Wilkins was the heart & soul of the defense, why should the Dolphins break the bank to preserve an above-average-ish unit?  Why not throw Christian Wilkins back in the lake and try to draft the next Aaron Donald?  Wilkins has yet to even make a Pro Bowl and people are out here talking like he's a Ring of Honor candidate.

Let me start by saying that I disagree with your opinion that Miami's defense was not particularly impressive and that it was worse than the offense by any measure.

The defense was terrible in the Titans game; they gave up 2 TD's in the last 3 minutes.

The defense was terrible in the Ravens game, played terrible the entire game.

The defense was not great in the first Buffalo game, BUT let's be honest the offense sucked also.  Miami's offense scored 1 TD in the 3rd quarter and nothing in the 4th quarter.  Scoring 20 pts on the road against Buffalo is not going to win you the game, so that was a team loss.

When you look at the 2 most imported games, week #18 against Buffalo and Wild card game against KC, the defense stepped up and played well, despite having more guys out do to injury the entire year.  Against Buffalo (21-14 loss) Miami's offense only scored 2 TD's in the 2nd quarter, the other three quarters NOTHING.  And by the way 7 of Buffalo's points scored came from a 96 yard punt return, so the defense only gave up 14 points.  In the KC game (26-7 loss) Miami's offense scored a whopping 7 points in the 2nd quarter, again NOTHING for the other 3 quarters.  Meanwhile the defense kept holding KC to FG's, it was 19-7 in the 4th and if Miami's offense showed up they still could have won that game.  Miami's offense scored a total of 21 points combined for the two most important games of the season!!  And don't blame the offensive line, only Connor Williams was out those two games, and Eichenberg had plenty of practice at the position and played well.  Whereas the defense was down multiple players but played over and above.

BTW the defense had 4 pick 6's last season, only Dallas had more with 5.

IMO the Dallas game was the one very bright spot for the offense, they scored when they had to, to win the game. (Equally the defense deserves credit for holding Dallas to 20 pts, when they were averaging 31 pts per game)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 02:56:48 pm by masterfins » Logged
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2024, 10:46:47 pm »

Every game is important; if MIA beats TEN then week 18 doesn't matter.  That said:

- @ LAC the defense was atrocious and pathetic.  The offense carried that game, full stop.
- @ BUF, the offense came out and put touchdowns on the board on their first 2 possessions.  The problem is that the defense allowed TDs on BUF's first four possessions.  You cannot allow 31 points in the first half and expect the offense to compete ON THE ROAD against a defense of BUF's caliber.
- vs. BUF in week 18, the offense kept pace with BUF, and the difference was a special teams return.  Not sure why that is on the offense but not the defense.
- @ KC in the Wild Card game, the defense simply got boat raced.  In sub-zero conditions, where you should expect a tight, low-scoring game, the defense allowed more yards and points than they did in Germany.

It's also pretty weird that the offense gets no credit for blowing out bad teams, yet the one time that the offense plays down to a bad team, the defense shits the bed.  If MIA doesn't have the top offense in the league, those games against DEN and CAR are probably looking very different.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 11:47:13 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

masterfins
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2024, 08:38:27 pm »

Every game is important; if MIA beats TEN then week 18 doesn't matter.  That said:

- @ LAC the defense was atrocious and pathetic.  The offense carried that game, full stop.
- @ BUF, the offense came out and put touchdowns on the board on their first 2 possessions.  The problem is that the defense allowed TDs on BUF's first four possessions.  You cannot allow 31 points in the first half and expect the offense to compete ON THE ROAD against a defense of BUF's caliber.
- vs. BUF in week 18, the offense kept pace with BUF, and the difference was a special teams return.  Not sure why that is on the offense but not the defense.
- @ KC in the Wild Card game, the defense simply got boat raced.  In sub-zero conditions, where you should expect a tight, low-scoring game, the defense allowed more yards and points than they did in Germany.

It's also pretty weird that the offense gets no credit for blowing out bad teams, yet the one time that the offense plays down to a bad team, the defense shits the bed.  If MIA doesn't have the top offense in the league, those games against DEN and CAR are probably looking very different.

I give the offense credit for a lot of good play during the season; It was the reason I felt more positive about the Dolphins than I have in probably two decades.  I also blamed the defense for poor play in some games this season  (I started my last reply with those).

But the fact that you can't blame the offense for the losses in the last two games of the season, when they scored a combined 21 points for the two games is just ridiculous IMO.  The 96 yard TD return has absolutely nothing to do with blaming the offense, it was merely to show the point that the defense held Buffalo to 14 points.
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