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Author Topic: Is there an explanation for this miracle  (Read 9763 times)
CF DolFan
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« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2025, 02:34:03 pm »

Ultimately, God's decision to create Satan makes the free will question even less important.  There's no reason Satan needed to exist, which leaves Christian apologists in the position of "Who are we to question the Most Holy?" And once you've fallen back to that bunker, all bets are off.

So what if humans don't actually have free will and trillions were created just to be sentenced to hell?  It's not our place to question God's plan.
God himself said not to question Him.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.


The question of sin is the most obvious thing I know of. Our idea of sin as an action but Jesus said if you think or desire a sinful act it is a sin.

Matthew 5:27-28 NIV

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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pondwater
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« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2025, 04:30:38 pm »

Not only will many people in church will go to hell but many pastors, priests etc. will join them. Many people go through the motions without ever surrendering to Christ.

Matthew 7:Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

With that said many people who live very dark lives end up getting saved so it's hard not to be available for everyone. Kat Von D and Russell Brand are two I bet most people would have thought lost causes. God doesn't share who is and isn't a lost cause.

Which illustrates exactly what I'm talking about. It's best that "ALL" religious people keep it to themselves and not try to "recruit" people. Since as you say, many of them will burn in hell and there's no way to know which one's. Then it's best to not take any of them seriously. It's like used car salesman shit. In my experience, the more someone talks about or pushes "God, Jesus, Bible", the faker they are as a person.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2025, 05:51:23 pm »

If God himself said not to question him, why does it matter if we have free will or not? What difference would it make if Eve was specifically created to doom all humans?

Christians need free will to exist because it is obviously immoral to punish someone for something they have no control over.  But that doesn't matter if we're not allowed to question God's morality in the first place!

If God's plan is for trillions of souls to be predestined for eternal torture, who are we to question it?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 05:56:03 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

CF DolFan
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2025, 09:48:39 am »

Which illustrates exactly what I'm talking about. It's best that "ALL" religious people keep it to themselves and not try to "recruit" people. Since as you say, many of them will burn in hell and there's no way to know which one's. Then it's best to not take any of them seriously. It's like used car salesman shit. In my experience, the more someone talks about or pushes "God, Jesus, Bible", the faker they are as a person.
That is so not true. If someone thinks people will perish in a burning hell why would they not tell people? Would you not warn people if you thought you could save them from something? I get there are over the top people who are preaching the gospel. I also know there are many people who do it for the wrong reasons. If they are condemning homosexuality without condemning cohabitating then they have definitely missed the mark. Society's changing standards are not God's standards. If these are the only people you have ever met then you haven't met many Christians. While there are sinners and hypocrites in church because we all are, many of us are trying the best they can. There are a ton of what you would consider good people in the Church.


If God himself said not to question him, why does it matter if we have free will or not? What difference would it make if Eve was specifically created to doom all humans?

Christians need free will to exist because it is obviously immoral to punish someone for something they have no control over.  But that doesn't matter if we're not allowed to question God's morality in the first place!

If God's plan is for trillions of souls to be predestined for eternal torture, who are we to question it?
I get you are a progressive liberal where you like to pretend anything you do is someone else's fault but they are not predestined by God to do this. They choose to separate themselves from the will of God. You can change your mind and follow Him at any time. Plenty of atheist's spend a lifetime bashing the "silly man in the sky" but eventually decide to investigate and end up having a change of heart.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2025, 09:51:52 am by CF DolFan » Logged

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Fau Teixeira
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2025, 10:06:00 am »

Quote
They choose to separate themselves from the will of God

With a omniscient, omnipotent god, this is literally impossible, unless it is gods will that they separate themselves.

and this by the way:
Quote
Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

is alot like the super hot girlfriend i had in middle school, but you'd never meet her, you now .. cause she lives in canada.
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pondwater
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« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2025, 08:07:49 pm »

That is so not true. If someone thinks people will perish in a burning hell why would they not tell people? Would you not warn people if you thought you could save them from something? I get there are over the top people who are preaching the gospel. I also know there are many people who do it for the wrong reasons. If they are condemning homosexuality without condemning cohabitating then they have definitely missed the mark. Society's changing standards are not God's standards. If these are the only people you have ever met then you haven't met many Christians. While there are sinners and hypocrites in church because we all are, many of us are trying the best they can. There are a ton of what you would consider good people in the Church.

Because it's no one's job to save me from hell. God gives everyone free will to make their own decisions. Which in turn leads to accountabilty for those actions. If someone's faith is solely based on fear of eternal damnation, it cannot be considered true faith. In that case it would be considered maniupulation. If God, heaven, or hell actually exist, it's up to each and every individual to make that decision. Not to be poked, prodded, and manipulated by a group of people (Christians) looking for validation and atterntion, most of whom are going to hell themselves (if it actually exists). Hypocrisy at its finest. Since as you say, "We're all sinners", then the following quote seems fitting for most Christians. "First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."

Also, I've met and been involved with many Christians, literally thousands. And while I cannot make a blanket statement about "all" Christians. I can say that most Christians show you what they want you to see. Narcissism and cluster B traits run rampent within the Christian community. No telling how many Christians I've known who seem like good people, only to find out later all the shady shit they do behind the scenes. Not to mention, every Christian woman I've ever been involved with (quite a few) was a serial cheater LMFAO

I don't take exercise advice from obese people, I don't take financial advice from broke people, and I don't take religious advice from people who can't follow the rules of the very book they're peddling. If I somehow find God one day, I'll find him myself. I'm fairly conservative and just calling it like I see it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2025, 08:09:46 pm by pondwater » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2025, 09:03:46 am »

Matthew 5:27-28 NIV

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


All of us are guilty of this one at some point in our lives.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2025, 10:13:08 am »

All of us are guilty of this one at some point in our lives.
We are all guilty of pretty much everything. That's why we need a Savior because we will never been good.
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pondwater
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2025, 11:26:22 am »

All of us are guilty of this one at some point in our lives.

I agree with a lot of the principals of the Bible. However, I totally disagree with this one. Everyone looks at and/or has fantasies  about people they find attractive. Not everyone cheats or commits adultry. The two are not the same, not even close 
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2025, 02:53:34 pm »

I get you are a progressive liberal where you like to pretend anything you do is someone else's fault but they are not predestined by God to do this. They choose to separate themselves from the will of God. You can change your mind and follow Him at any time.
God knows your final destination long before you are born.  You say you can "change your mind at any time," but if God knows you are going to hell, to "change your mind" would mean that God was mistaken... which is impossible.

You simply reject that straightforward logic because admitting it to be true would mean your God is glaringly unjust in punishing people for decisions they were created to make.  As I said before: Satan did not have to be evil; God chose to make him that way.  And your only rebuttal to that is "We cannot question God's will."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 02:56:52 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

CF DolFan
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2025, 03:33:52 pm »

Not at all. I'm saying you can be Charles Manson and then actually repent later in life and be saved by God's Grace. It just isn't a secret to Him that it was going to happen. It also isn't a given that tomorrow will happen for any of us.

LOL ...  you can accuse me of a lot but I'll admit it. I'm kind of glad I can't, nor can any genius here on earth, figure everything out. I love that God is much wiser than me and has proven it time and time again. It actually brings comfort and makes it easier to follow Him when I clearly do not understand the why.
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2025, 07:44:09 pm »

^ I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't understand how that's anything except for the illusion of choice.  It's like saying a computer chose to do a thing it was programmed to do.

I don't have a dog in the fight since I believe all of this God nonsense is total poppycock regardless, but in terms of the logic to get you to a position, if your choice is predetermined, is it really a choice?
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2025, 10:16:22 pm »

If the future is already known and unchangeable, you don't have a choice.  You are simply doing what you were created to do; whatever decisions you think you are making are already built-in.

You are a prisoner of the mind that you have; a mind that was given to you by God.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2025, 11:11:21 am »

I think there's a BIG difference between seeing into the future and knowing what will happen and causing the outcome. I think it's very possible to know that the Dolphins will win the 2026 Superbowl without having CAUSED the Dolphins to win the 2026 Superbowl.

I don't believe that God pre-determines what I will do, he simply can see the future where I have already made the choice. I still make the choice in the present, God doesn't make the choice for me, but he can see the future and what choice I will make. There's a big difference.

Consider the back to the future movies. If you are Marty and go back in time you know what will happen in the future even though it hasn't happened yet. That doesn't mean that Marty causes those things to happen, he simply knows what will happen.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2025, 12:43:13 pm »

I think it's very possible to know that the Dolphins will win the 2026 Superbowl without having CAUSED the Dolphins to win the 2026 Superbowl.

Really?  Can you explain how it would be possible to know that?

Quote
I don't believe that God pre-determines what I will do, he simply can see the future where I have already made the choice.

This seems to require a fantasy where where a future exists which hasn't happened yet.

Quote
Consider the back to the future movies. If you are Marty and go back in time you know what will happen in the future even though it hasn't happened yet. That doesn't mean that Marty causes those things to happen, he simply knows what will happen.

This is exactly the point.  Back to the Future is a fictional story that doesn't actually follow the laws of nature as we understand them.  And even in that universe, characters can make multiple choices which result in very different timelines.
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