Florida property tax

[pondwater]

What do you guys that live here in the sunshine state think of the Property Tax vote on the November ballot?

[Spider-Dan]

Just looked this up and I'm also interested to hear what FL residents think, especially anyone who doesn't own a home.

[CF DolFan]

I fully support the version DeSantis presented and am only OK with the one they passed. Florida Chief Financial Officer Blaise Ingoglia and his F.A.F.O. (Florida Agency for Fiscal Oversight) auditing teams have uncovered massive local government overspending and abuse across the state.

DeSantis has not only continued to lower state budgets, he has paid down the state debt to less than half of what it was when he took office. Unfortunately more politicians either aren't capable, or refuse to do it. I can only speak to the local officials I know. They tend to see something they want and just add to the bill. There is no reduction in pet projects or unnecessary giveaways. 

I say all of this to say I don't think municipalities are going to suffer like they are pretending. They will either have to make tough choices or get replaced by people who will. Florida residents should not be on the hook for their inept spending. Rising property "values" do not equate to additional spending needs although they will tell you differently.

[Dave Gray]

This is a bad idea, but one that might help me personally.

1) Taxes have to come from somewhere. So, by cutting this off, you're going to have to get it from other places.  That is just a fact of running a government, or else things will get shittier.

That said:

2) This is another way to help the haves and hurt the have nots.  I own a house.  So, I'll get that cut.   But there is an absolute crisis here where you simply cannot buy a house.  The cost of a home far, far, far exceeds the reasonable salary to be a worker here.  If you don't already own a house and can sell that house for more than you bought it to trade up, you pretty much aren't buying one.

The median value of a home in the lower half of the state is $640,000.  All of my friends who are my age were able to buy a decade ago and their value went up.  All of my younger friends rent and have no end in sight, because every home is 3X their budget.

This will fuck renters which is the majority of the working class.

[Dave Gray]

I say all of this to say I don't think municipalities are going to suffer like they are pretending. They will either have to make tough choices or get replaced by people who will. Florida residents should not be on the hook for their inept spending. Rising property "values" do not equate to additional spending needs although they will tell you differently.

This is a Republican fantasy that we've seen over and over.  If there is over-spending and fraud, fine -- cut the spending.  But the idea to cut the revenue as a pretext to being forced to cut spending....that just doesn't happen.  Tax cuts are spending.

This is just going to shift the revenue stream away from home-owners to the general public in other forms.  Those that will benefit from this the most are those that are paying the highest property tax which is (you guessed it) the ultra rich.  And the people who will see the biggest percentage of increase (from sales tax or whatever it turns out to be) will be the working poor.  As usual.

And then it will probably run up the debt, as they always do while pretending to be hawks.  It's a good scam.

[Phishfan]

I haven't boned up on the particulars yet but my initial reaction is that I am leaning towards it right now. I'm a home owner so I would see the break.

[Dave Gray]

I haven't boned up on the particulars yet but my initial reaction is that I am leaning towards it right now. I'm a home owner so I would see the break.

This is the rub.  You might see a small benefit, personally.  You will have increased prices elsewhere, but they may not be as much as you will save in the property tax.

It will help the ultra rich mansion owners greatly.  They will bank.  That's a small amount of people.

But it will hurt those below you, which is the majority of the people here.  It's just another class separator and that kind of thing hurts the general economy because the super wealthy that are saving from this aren't pumping that money back into the economy -- they sit on it like Smaug.  It also further locks up the housing market, IMO.

[CF DolFan]

This is a Republican fantasy that we've seen over and over.  If there is over-spending and fraud, fine -- cut the spending.  But the idea to cut the revenue as a pretext to being forced to cut spending....that just doesn't happen.  Tax cuts are spending.

This is just going to shift the revenue stream away from home-owners to the general public in other forms.  Those that will benefit from this the most are those that are paying the highest property tax which is (you guessed it) the ultra rich.  And the people who will see the biggest percentage of increase (from sales tax or whatever it turns out to be) will be the working poor.  As usual.

And then it will probably run up the debt, as they always do while pretending to be hawks.  It's a good scam.

I have seen the inside of government first hand. Worked 13 years for Seminole county and work regularly now with Orange, Seminole, and Lake Counties, as well as the City of Orlando and many others. I know people elected who have no idea what they are doing. I know them personally. It's a popularity contest and the guy or gal who led the class with great ideas are rarely in local offices. Heck .... for that matter much of the State Legislatures are in over their heads. If they were businesses they would all file bankruptcy every time they could. They are the only people in the world who do not have to set a liveable budget and keep it or face consequences. As it is, they just increase the bill for us taxpayers.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

It will help the ultra rich mansion owners greatly.  They will bank.  That's a small amount of people.

]

If I am reading the bill correctly (and maybe I am not) it doesn't sound like it.  It is an exemption on the first $250,000.  So if you own a house worth less than $250,000 you don't pay the tax.  If you own a house worth $2,250,000 you are still paying tax on $2 million.  if you own a house worth $300,00 you will be getting a massive tax cut, if you own a house worth $5 million you will barely notice the cut. That is a progressive tax, that benefits the middle class more than the ultra rich. 

The bigger problem Florida has is the limits on reacessing value.  A house purchased in 1970 might have a market value of $2 million dollars but an assessed value of only $200,000, while a house purchased last year for $400,000 is going to have an assesed value of $400,000.  This results in a regressive tax rate. 

[Dave Gray]

]

If I am reading the bill correctly (and maybe I am not) it doesn't sound like it.  It is an exemption on the first $250,000. 

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

It was sold as an elimination of property taxes.

Still hurts renters, but is much less troublesome that I had anticipated.

[Dave Gray]

]
The bigger problem Florida has is the limits on reacessing value.  A house purchased in 1970 might have a market value of $2 million dollars but an assessed value of only $200,000, while a house purchased last year for $400,000 is going to have an assesed value of $400,000.  This results in a regressive tax rate. 

This could be exploited, I guess, and I know that it prevents people from moving out of their houses where the assessed value is more than they paid, so moving would screw them in taxes.  It freezes things, for sure.

But in my situation, I bought a normal single-family home and then in about a 3 year period, it literally doubled in value.  My house value is crazy for "what it is" and if I had to pay taxes on the market value, I'd almost be forced to sell.  It's just not a workable situation.

[Spider-Dan]

1) Taxes have to come from somewhere. So, by cutting this off, you're going to have to get it from other places.  That is just a fact of running a government, or else things will get shittier.

That's the goal.  It's a feature, not a bug.

Conservatives campaign on the idea that government is the problem and prove it when they get into office.  They WANT government to work poorly.

This will fuck renters which is the majority of the working class.

Again, I would say "working as intended."

[Spider-Dan]

But in my situation, I bought a normal single-family home and then in about a 3 year period, it literally doubled in value.  My house value is crazy for "what it is" and if I had to pay taxes on the market value, I'd almost be forced to sell.  It's just not a workable situation.

House prices in CA are very high for a similar reason: we also have a cap on the amount property taxes can rise.  What voters don't seem to understand is that these two things are linked, and lowering taxes is what MAKES house prices high.

People shop for homes based on the monthly mortgage note they can afford to pay.  If interest rates or property taxes are high, then that means buyers (at every level) have to shop for less expensive homes, which pushes prices down.  Conversely, if property taxes or interest rates are low, that means people can afford to take out a larger loan, which pushes house prices up.

If property taxes were at market value, it's not like millions of Floridians would just go homeless.  The housing market would fall until house price+property tax is in line with incomes.

[pondwater]

There are several things to unpack here. I've been seeing so much propaganda from both sides on this issue.

First off, state real estate values have skyrocketed and state property tax revenue has nearly doubled since 2019. Consequently, nearly all Florida counties are holding record high surplus reserves. Florida property tax revenue has greatly outpaced inflation and population growth since 2019. In my opinion, the cost of running local governments isn't tied to real estate values. Under the current system, if everyone's house doubles in price 6 months and their taxes go up how does that valuation number on a tax appraisers piece of paper make the cost of running the local government go up? Where is that money going? And more importantly, how am I benefiting from it?

Second, local pet projects and corruption are out of control. The tax revenue should only be spent on infrastructure and essential services. Yesterday I was talking about this to my brother who lives in St Johns County. He relayed that they are currently planning to build several libraries, parks, splash pads, dog parks, playgrounds, walking trails, and pickleball courts among other things. Hundreds of millions of dollars for things that aren't needed. Just like the federal government, local governments are making the same mistake that most financially illiterate people make. Not understanding the difference between "wants vs needs". Not to mention the salaries some of them make. Miami's city manager makes $475,000 a year, with a 20% pension, top line health/dental care, a city furnished vehicle, and a travel allowance. For context, the Governor of Florida makes roughly $141,000 annually and the President of the United States only makes $400,000.

Third, don't fall for the propaganda. All I've been seeing lately on the news and social media is articles with the politicians crying about how they will have budget shortfalls. Seeing as how they have record surpluses based off of years worth of overinflated home prices. They don't have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem. Only around 45% of the homes in florida currently have the homestead exemption and school taxes are exempt. Plus there is a strict 5-year homestead residency requirement built into the new property tax amendment. New residents cannot claim the homestead exemption for 5 years. Going by the math, it seems to me this is more like fear mongering and begging.

And finally, on the other end of the spectrum. While this bill does raise the homestead exemption, it doesn't go far enough to protect that exemption. It does not prohibit the counties from implementing other ways to replace the lost revenue. There is nothing restricting them from raising local sales taxes, implementing special assessments, raising tourism taxes, or impact fees. So, if the bill passes we may be paying less in property taxes. But those savings could be offset by new charges. Or hell, we might be paying more. Which kind of proves my last point of fear mongering by the politicians.

At the end of the day, you might never get this chance again. If you don't vote yes for this ammendment and in 10 years when your property taxes double or triples from where it currently is, that's what you voted for. At that point you can't complain.

[pondwater]

This is a Republican fantasy that we've seen over and over.  If there is over-spending and fraud, fine -- cut the spending.  But the idea to cut the revenue as a pretext to being forced to cut spending....that just doesn't happen.  Tax cuts are spending.

Not when having their budgets double or triple from just 5 years ago. Why should people keep on paying this much for the same exact services that we’ve have all along but they're only using half or less of the current money and running surpluses?

I'm not sure if you figured it out yet, but politicians are like children. If you give them a whole box of cookies, they'll eat as many as they can. Kind of like the idiots that win the lottery and buy a bunch of silly shit for a few years. Then wind up living with in their grandmother's mobile home sleeping on the couch. That's the level of incompetence of most politicians. The only way to limit the outflow is to limit the inflow.