Are we great yet?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I have to say it is down right funny listening to famers who voted for Trump whine because the illegal immigrants they hire to pick their fields aren't showing up to work due to fear of being deported. 

[Sibster]

It's really simple.   Give those jobs to prison inmates.   

[Spider-Dan]

While I can appreciate that the immediate & obvious conservative solution is "Just force someone to do it," I don't think you've considered the logistics of having prison workers in wide, open fields.

Let me see if I can put this in a way that might illuminate the problem: imagine if we sentenced illegal immigrants to "working in the fields."  Do you see the issue with that solution now?

[Sibster]

While I can appreciate that the immediate & obvious conservative solution is "Just force someone to do it," I don't think you've considered the logistics of having prison workers in wide, open fields.

Let me see if I can put this in a way that might illuminate the problem: imagine if we sentenced illegal immigrants to "working in the fields."  Do you see the issue with that solution now?

I don't see any issues with it at all.   They'd be going through security screenings before even being considered for a job like this.   They'd under the supervision of guards.  They'd be paid a decent wage that can be put on their books so they can buy their toiletries/commissary/etc... and as the money starts to accumulate, it can be given to them when they get released so they can get started on a new life.

Florida Department of Corrections actually has such work programs but they do more than work farm fields.

[Spider-Dan]

There are roughly 2.5 million farmworkers in these United States.
There are roughly 2 million prisoners at all levels combined (federal, state, local).

You are not replacing the farmworker labor force with the minimum security "Club Fed" types, who would likely decline anyway; this work is legitimately difficult.
It would have to be all hands on deck, and it would definitely have to be compulsory.  And the number of guards you would have to hire to monitor wide open fields would make this program incredibly expensive.

The idea that we can return to a slave economy (but just replace "slaves" with "prisoners") is nuts.  One of the reasons why you were able to have slave overseers in the fields all day is because air conditioning didn't exist; if you think 21st-century correctional officers are going to be willing to stand around in the hot sun all day monitoring prisoner-workers at a massive scale, you're delusional.

[Sibster]

There are roughly 2.5 million farmworkers in these United States.
There are roughly 2 million prisoners at all levels combined (federal, state, local).

You are not replacing the farmworker labor force with the minimum security "Club Fed" types, who would likely decline anyway; this work is legitimately difficult.
It would have to be all hands on deck, and it would definitely have to be compulsory.  And the number of guards you would have to hire to monitor wide open fields would make this program incredibly expensive.

The idea that we can return to a slave economy (but just replace "slaves" with "prisoners") is nuts.  One of the reasons why you were able to have slave overseers in the fields all day is because air conditioning didn't exist; if you think 21st-century correctional officers are going to be willing to stand around in the hot sun all day monitoring prisoner-workers at a massive scale, you're delusional.

I can play with AI too.   Of the 2.5 million farm workers, only about 15% of them are actual illegals (or suspected).   

Stop throwing out numbers to support your TDS.

[Spider-Dan]

Hilarious that you think I would rely on AI for any facts, or that web search hasn't existed for 30+ years before AI.

If it's "only 15%" then why are these whining MAGA farmers being brought to their knees?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Hilarious that you think I would rely on AI for any facts, or that web search hasn't existed for 30+ years before AI.

If it's "only 15%" then why are these whining MAGA farmers being brought to their knees?

Because it not.  Dept of Labor says between 40% and 53%.  The USDA's best estimate is 42%.  Another complaint of these farmers is when they hire replacements, the replacements are untrained.   Turns out harvesting crops requires training and skills.  So it is not just a matter of plugging in some unskilled workers.

[mod note: accidentally edited this post on accident]

[Spider-Dan]

But Sibster asked Elon Musk's MechaHitler AI and it said that Actually There Aren't That Many Undocumented Farmworkers.  So who can really say either way?

I also doubt he is very concerned about whether the slaves prisoners are properly skilled.  The point is that we can force them to do it and they can't say no, which is the conservative solution to many a problem.

[Sibster]

But Sibster asked Elon Musk's MechaHitler AI and it said that Actually There Aren't That Many Undocumented Farmworkers.  So who can really say either way?

I also doubt he is very concerned about whether the slaves prisoners are properly skilled.  The point is that we can force them to do it and they can't say no, which is the conservative solution to many a problem.

You keep referring to them as slaves.   Slaves are being forced into labor against their will when they haven't done anything wrong.   You can't label an inmate that.   Inmates broke the law.   They aren't in prison to be judged.  That has already been done at that point.  They are in prison to be kept.   

[Fau Teixeira]

Slavery was not abolished for and is legal for inmates.

[Sibster]

Slavery was not abolished for and is legal for inmates.

It's really simple.  Don't break the law and you won't have to worry about hard labor.

[Spider-Dan]

You keep referring to them as slaves.   Slaves are being forced into labor against their will when they haven't done anything wrong.   You can't label an inmate that.

I am referring to forced labor as "forced labor."

You should be aware that after slavery was outlawed by the 13th Amendment, many former Confederate states rushed to enact vagrancy laws, where these newly freed (and therefore "unemployed") former slaves attempting to migrate away would be arrested and convicted of "vagrancy," punishable by... 12 months of indentured servitude to the highest bidder, of course.  So your "It's not slavery, it's punishment for criminals" trope is nothing new.

Even more damning is that you, presumably a capitalist, have decided that the only free-market solution to this problem is to force people to work these farms for pennies on the dollar.  There are, of course, two other options:

1) Legalize the existing immigrant farm workers and simplify a path to citizenship to create & maintain a robust pool of immigrant farm workers, willing to (cheaply) do a job that American citizens will not

OR

2) Farms increase their wages until the jobs become attractive enough for American citizens to be willing to work them, which would then cause the price of food to increase dramatically

Of course, the "Fuck Off We're Full" contingent of this country will never allow #1, so instead we'll get #2.

[Sibster]

Even more damning is that you, presumably a capitalist, have decided that the only free-market solution to this problem is to force people to work these farms for pennies on the dollar.  There are, of course, two other options:

Once again, you assume without asking.   I never said pennies on the dollar.   You're assuming they work for 40 cents an hour like most prison jobs pay.   Not the case here.  They need to be paid at least minimum wage to work a job like this.   Then they will have money to get started once they are released.   

[Spider-Dan]

"How dare you assume 'prisoners' would be paid 'prison wages' (even though I said absolutely nothing indicating otherwise)"

Even minimum wage would be "pennies on the dollar" compared to what you would have to pay citizens to work these farms, which is why you have to use forced labor in the first place.