I have never seen public perception change on an issue as much as Israel.

[CF DolFan]

I don't blame the attacks on Oct 7th on Israel at all.  

But I don't agree with their continued assault on an entire population in Gaza, especially with our money.  I don't think that's a crazy position.

Hamas is the worst.  But the tactics in the name of finding them has gone too far.

The only way to stop a people who will stop at nothing to eliminate you is to eliminate them. It's as if you guys purposely ignore the fact like 1/3 of Muslims want all Christians and Jews dead and have no problem dying to accomplish this. If you knew 1/3 of your friends were trying to kill you but you didn't know which ones you would find new friends or possible choose to have none.

[Spider-Dan]

CF, you don't seem to apply the same logic to the percentage of Israelis who think all measures are justified in "dealing with the Palestinian threat." Instead of condemning violence, it's this sort of "Muslims are terrorists so ethnic cleansing is a reasonable response" vortex.

As long as Israel is an apartheid state, there is no way to come to a peaceful solution.

[Dave Gray]

The only way to stop a people who will stop at nothing to eliminate you is to eliminate them. It's as if you guys purposely ignore the fact like 1/3 of Muslims want all Christians and Jews dead and have no problem dying to accomplish this. If you knew 1/3 of your friends were trying to kill you but you didn't know which ones you would find new friends or possible choose to have none.

I am shocked by this.

I don't even know how to respond to it.  It seems like a never-ending spiral of death and war.

[CF DolFan]

I am shocked by this.

I don't even know how to respond to it.  It seems like a never-ending spiral of death and war.

It is and it is Biblical whether you want to believe it or not. Goes all the way back to Abraham and his two sons. One born of an Egyptian servant (Ishmael) and one born out of promise from God (Isaac).   (Genesis 17:20): God Said Ishmael will be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility towards all his brothers.”

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I am shocked by this.

I don't even know how to respond to it.  It seems like a never-ending spiral of death and war.

I know how you respond to it.  You deny it.  You pretend like there weren't a cheering jubilation throughout Gaza on Oct 7.  You claim that Hamas isn't supported by the vast majority of Gaza and are some sort of separate unpopular group.  You pretend that weapon bearers are innocent. You condemn Israel for blowing up truck containing explosives because it was labeled as containing food.  You condemn Israel for blocking crates of weapons because a Hamas sympathizer claims it was medical supplies.  You pretend that the charter of the elected government of Gaza doesn't call for genocide of all Jews in the middle east.  

[Spider-Dan]

I am shocked by this.

I don't even know how to respond to it.  It seems like a never-ending spiral of death and war.

I imagine the Afrikaners in South Africa had similar rationalizations for why maintaining apartheid was an existential crisis for their people.

Clearly Stephen Miller and Donald Trump agree with such logic, which is why over 99% of asylum applicants admitted to this country in 2026 are white people from South Africa.

[CF DolFan]

I imagine the Afrikaners in South Africa had similar rationalizations for why maintaining apartheid was an existential crisis for their people.

Clearly Stephen Miller and Donald Trump agree with such logic, which is why over 99% of asylum applicants admitted to this country in 2026 are white people from South Africa.

This is a recent thing and they aren't admitted by race but country of origin. Many more Christians were killed for being Christian there last year than came to the US. In all, less than 20% of the US's immigrant population is white. In fact, Mexico leads the way by a large margin.  

[Spider-Dan]

It is absolutely by race:

In October 2025, [Trump] restarted the refugee program with a historically low annual cap of 7,500 refugees, prioritizing white Afrikaners from South Africa. Of the 4,499 refugees admitted by this administration before April 2026 (the most recent data available), 99.9 percent were white South Africans.

But this is what we are now: a pro-apartheid society, both for bygone regimes like Afrikaner South Africa (where Elon Musk and Peter Thiel are from) and current ones like Israel.  Trump and his goons would love to do here what Israel does in Gaza and the West Bank; Minnesota saw this firsthand.

ETA: Whether you want to phrase it as "He's only accepting white people, but you have to be from South Africa" or "He's only accepting people from South Africa, but you have to be white," either way it's a race-based refugee admissions policy.  The idea that Trump is "saving persecuted Christians" is absolute nonsense, as South Africa has a higher percentage of Christians (85%) than the US (62%).

[pondwater]

--> not wanting to financially support another country in general.

That's the real issue here. I don't give half a shit about the politics of any of it. The fact is that it's none of our business. We shouldn't be financing other people's wars. That goes for Israel, Ukraine, and anyone else that thinks we are their piggy bank. Ron Paul was right, we need to mind our own business.

[SCFinfan]

Honestly, I don't think people would care about another rather distasteful middle eastern conflict if the cost of living was lower.

I think it smacks of hypocrisy and elitism to provide another country money for war while we're struggling with affordability here at home.

But the problem with that line of thinking is it cuts both ways: I'm noticing a creeping distaste for helping Ukraine as well. That is more partisan that the Israel issue ahs become, but, mass media (whatever its remaining grip may be) has clearly sided with Ukraine vs against Israel, so it's not 100% shocking that one is more partisan than the other.

[pondwater]

Honestly, I don't think people would care about another rather distasteful middle eastern conflict if the cost of living was lower.

I think it smacks of hypocrisy and elitism to provide another country money for war while we're struggling with affordability here at home.

But the problem with that line of thinking is it cuts both ways: I'm noticing a creeping distaste for helping Ukraine as well. That is more partisan that the Israel issue ahs become, but, mass media (whatever its remaining grip may be) has clearly sided with Ukraine vs against Israel, so it's not 100% shocking that one is more partisan than the other.

That's the thing though. I lean conservative but I'm not picking a side on either one. The only side I'm picking is our side. Too many people on the right defending Israel and too many people on the left defending Ukraine. I don't think that sending billions of dollars to Israel or Ukraine is in our best interest. If other countries want to blow each other off the map, so be it. As long as they don't fuck with us who cares? We can't keep playing the world's police and the world's emergency savings account. If a tsunami or natural disaster hits somewhere, sure send some humanitarian aid. But countries that can't get their shit together and are always at war and always taking money and not improving, fuck 'em. We have our own problems to fix.

[SCFinfan]

That's the thing though. I lean conservative but I'm not picking a side on either one. The only side I'm picking is our side. Too many people on the right defending Israel and too many people on the left defending Ukraine. I don't think that sending billions of dollars to Israel or Ukraine is in our best interest. If other countries want to blow each other off the map, so be it. As long as they don't fuck with us who cares? We can't keep playing the world's police and the world's emergency savings account. If a tsunami or natural disaster hits somewhere, sure send some humanitarian aid. But countries that can't get their shit together and are always at war and always taking money and not improving, fuck 'em. We have our own problems to fix.

Tough call. If we don't play world police, someone else will try to.

I just want the cost of living to go down. If that happens, foreign policy will not be front and center, bc money will not be at the top of everyone's mind.

[Spider-Dan]

The original America First movement gained popularity in the aftermath of World War 1, advocating for the US to stay out of world politics and focus on domestic affairs.  They ceased to exist when that approach led directly to World War 2, only two decades after the end of WW1.

Trumpist isolationism will only speed up China's ascension to the dominant world power.  The solution is not to withdraw from world events; the solution is to stop supporting corrupt apartheid regimes.

[Dave Gray]

This is such a hard topic to discuss and depending on where people stand, you get scoffed out of the room.

I am not an isolationist.  I think that supporting Democracy and prevent other countries from takeover is smart, in general.  It's also soft-power in the world and it pays you back.

I am 100% in favor of supporting Ukraine.  Full stop.  They are getting invaded by an aggressor.

With Israel, I'm also in favor of supporting their defense, but the line blurs when they're on the offensive.  And I know the "offense is defense" thing, but there's a point where I'm not about that and we're well past that point.  ...especially on our dime.


And then there's this extra little part where it kind of burns my ass that we don't have socialized medicine but we have enough money to support countries that do have socialized medicine.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

With Israel, I'm also in favor of supporting their defense, but the line blurs when they're on the offensive.  And I know the "offense is defense" thing, but there's a point where I'm not about that and we're well past that point.  ...especially on our dime.

Let me make sure I have this straight.

You are okay with Israel shooting down the rockets fired by Hamas into Israel, but not in Israel dropping bombs on the rocket launchers.

You are okay with shooting at the Hamas terrorist while they were in Israel kidnapping civilians, but you are not okay with Israel going into Gaza to rescue the kidnap victims or kill the murderers. 

Do I have that right?