I have never seen public perception change on an issue as much as Israel.

[Dave Gray]

You don't have that right.

Sorry Hoodie, you're not having a discussion in good faith.  I'm here for you when you'd like to have that chat, though. 

[Spider-Dan]

You are okay with shooting at the Hamas terrorist while they were in Israel kidnapping civilians, but you are not okay with Israel going into Gaza to rescue the kidnap victims or kill the murderers.

How many years of bombing hospitals in Gaza is sufficient to make up for the Israeli deaths on October 7?
Or should it go on indefinitely?

[CF DolFan]

You don't have that right.

Sorry Hoodie, you're not having a discussion in good faith.  I'm here for you when you'd like to have that chat, though.  

What Hoodie is saying is being acted out and supported across this country. It is just as insane as wanting biological men playing in women's sports to me. Makes no sense.

How many years of bombing hospitals in Gaza is sufficient to make up for the Israeli deaths on October 7?
Or should it go on indefinitely?

As long as Hamas is using them for their own purposes. You'd have to ask them how long they plan on hiding behind human shields.

[Spider-Dan]

As long as Hamas is using them for their own purposes. You'd have to ask them how long they plan on hiding behind human shields.

So Israel should continue to bomb hospitals until Hamas has been eradicated?
Not 100 Hamas operatives remaining, not 50, not a dozen... completely gone?

What are the conditions that must exist for the Israeli military to stop bombing hospitals?  Be specific.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

How many years of bombing hospitals in Gaza is sufficient to make up for the Israeli deaths on October 7?
Or should it go on indefinitely?

it is not about revenge.  It is about preventing Hamas from having the ability to repeat Oct 7.  

You don't have that right.

Sorry Hoodie, you're not having a discussion in good faith.  I'm here for you when you'd like to have that chat, though.  

Saying you support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's rocket launch sites EXCEPT when those rocket launch sites are next to a daycare center.  Is the exact same thing as you don't support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's rocket launch sites.

Saying you support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's command and control centers, UNLESS that command and control center is located under a hospital. Is the exact same thing as saying Israel can't destroy any of Hamas's command and control centers.

Saying you support Israel's right to return fire on a sniper, UNLESS that sniper is firing from an apartment building, is the exact same thing as saying Israel cannot return fire on snipers.

Saying you support Israel's right to prevent weapons from entering Gaza UNLESS those weapons are in a truck mislabeled as food is the exact same thing as saying you support the free flow of weapons to Hamas.  

Saying you support Israel's right to stop Hamas from transporting weapons around Gaza UNLESS the truck transporting the weapons is mislabeled as an ambulance, is the same thing as saying you support Hamas freely transport weapons around Gaza.  

Saying you support Israel destroying Hamas's terror tunnels, BUT ONLY if they can be destroyed without also destroying civilian infrastructure is the same thing as saying you want the terror tunnels to remain.  

Israel wasn't the one who decided to put ammo depos under hospitals.  The government of Gaza was the one that decided to use all their hospitals and schools as military bases.  When Israel blew up a mortar site next to a daycare center, they weren't targeting a daycare center, they were targeting mortars.  When Israel blew up weapon depos under hospitals, they weren't targeting the hospitals.    

[CF DolFan]

So Israel should continue to bomb hospitals until Hamas has been eradicated?
Not 100 Hamas operatives remaining, not 50, not a dozen... completely gone?

What are the conditions that must exist for the Israeli military to stop bombing hospitals?  Be specific.

I was pretty specific. When they quit concealing terrorists, coordinating operations, holding hostages, storing weapons, explosives, and ammunition in them then Israel should stop. The truth is, just like Iran, unless boots get put on the ground all citizens are in harm's way because of the actions of those individual terrorists. If you are looking for numbers then you aren't paying attention to what I'm saying.

[Dave Gray]

it is not about revenge.  It is about preventing Hamas from having the ability to repeat Oct 7. 

Saying you support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's rocket launch sites EXCEPT when those rocket launch sites are next to a daycare center.  Is the exact same thing as you don't support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's rocket launch sites.

Saying you support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's command and control centers, UNLESS that command and control center is located under a hospital. Is the exact same thing as saying Israel can't destroy any of Hamas's command and control centers.

Saying you support Israel's right to return fire on a sniper, UNLESS that sniper is firing from an apartment building, is the exact same thing as saying Israel cannot return fire on snipers.

Saying you support Israel's right to prevent weapons from entering Gaza UNLESS those weapons are in a truck mislabeled as food is the exact same thing as saying you support the free flow of weapons to Hamas. 

Saying you support Israel's right to stop Hamas from transporting weapons around Gaza UNLESS the truck transporting the weapons is mislabeled as an ambulance, is the same thing as saying you support Hamas freely transport weapons around Gaza. 

Saying you support Israel destroying Hamas's terror tunnels, BUT ONLY if they can be destroyed without also destroying civilian infrastructure is the same thing as saying you want the terror tunnels to remain. 

Israel wasn't the one who decided to put ammo depos under hospitals.  The government of Gaza was the one that decided to use all their hospitals and schools as military bases.  When Israel blew up a mortar site next to a daycare center, they weren't targeting a daycare center, they were targeting mortars.  When Israel blew up weapon depos under hospitals, they weren't targeting the hospitals.   

This is a literal series of strawman arguments.  You're giving me my position and then arguing against a stance I didn't take.  It's not in good faith.  Discuss the topic with the people actually discussing the topic with you.

[Spider-Dan]

I was pretty specific. When they quit concealing terrorists, coordinating operations, holding hostages, storing weapons, explosives, and ammunition in them then Israel should stop.

So basically, after terrorism has been completely eradicated, only THEN will Israel stop committing war crimes.

Do you not see that your argument is reversible?
"The atrocities of Hamas justify all means of response by Israel" is no different than "The atrocities of Israel justify all means of response by Hamas."  The Israel/Palestine conflict did not begin in October 2023.

The reason why we have international treaties that define acceptable actions of war is specifically to avoid this vortex of brutality.  You do not get to commit war crimes because your adversary is Really Evil.  Of course, given that these excuses are frequently coming from the "Torture is actually just fine when we do it" crowd, perhaps this argument is falling on deaf ears.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

The reason why we have international treaties that define acceptable actions of war is specifically to avoid this

Yes, we do.  In a nutshell the international treaties basically say: 

1. You can't use civilians as shields. 
2. You can't target civilians; you have to target the militants. 

Just because one party violates the treaty doesn't give the other party free reign to violate the treaties.   

However, and this part is very important and constantly ignored.  If one party does violate the first rule and the second party targets the militants and, in the process, kills the civilians that are being used as shields.  The party that was using civilians to hide behind is the one violating international law not one targeting the militants hiding behind the civilians.     


 
 

[Spider-Dan]

To use such an interpretation of "war crimes" is to simply say war crimes do not exist.
"You see the hundreds of mangled corpses in the rubble of the hospital we just bombed?  Some of them were Hamas.  (source: trust me bro)"

Furthermore, Israel's (continually expanding) settlements in the West Bank violate international law.  This has been ongoing for decades.
Again, this conflict didn't start 3 years ago.  So this "Their crimes justify our crimes" reasoning is perfectly circular.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

To use such an interpretation of "war crimes" is to simply say war crimes do not exist.

Not at all.  It just correctly points out who is committing the war crimes. 

[Spider-Dan]

"Hamas operatives are down there in the rubble somewhere" is indistinguishable from "We will bomb whomever we want in Gaza, whenever we want."

It is worth mentioning that there is a way to address this problem without committing war crimes.  It the same mechanism the US used in the aftermath of 9/11 when invading Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power: international consensus.  But because Israel has basically spent the entire 21st century violating international law with respect to Gaza and the West Bank, this avenue is not available to them; Israel has burned their bridges with most of the international community save the US, and they are frantically burning every bridge with half of the one country that still supports them.

The Netanyahu Administration (and the greater Likud Party as a whole) have chosen to make their cause an explicitly partisan issue by throwing in their lot with the Republican Party, and there will be significant consequences for this choice the next time Democrats are in power.  When that happens, people like Hoodie on the American left are going to have some tough choices to make.  Continued support for fascist apartheid in Israel will likely require supporting fascism in America.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

One huge difference between the Afghanistan and Gaza is for the most part neither the Talban nor al Qaeda used their own citizens as human shields.  I doubt this represented a higher concern for their own but rather the difference between mountain and urban warfare.  However, the US most certainly had a policy in Afghanistan that anyone in close proximity of the Talban or al Qaeda is likely aiding them and also a target. 

In Iraq the US maintained a policy that operational security and US service personal safety was more important than civilians and had no qualms about destroying a building occupied both combatants and non-combatants.   

[Sunstroke]

I care pretty much the same for Isrealis and Palestinians...and I care for both of them the same as I do for people in Madagascar (Madagascarians?).  It just doesn't matter to me where they are from, or which work of fiction they swear by. Jewish fiction is the same as Muslim fiction to me, and zealots are zealots are zealots.

[CF DolFan]

So basically, after terrorism has been completely eradicated, only THEN will Israel stop committing war crimes.

Do you not see that your argument is reversible?
"The atrocities of Hamas justify all means of response by Israel" is no different than "The atrocities of Israel justify all means of response by Hamas."  The Israel/Palestine conflict did not begin in October 2023.

The reason why we have international treaties that define acceptable actions of war is specifically to avoid this vortex of brutality.  You do not get to commit war crimes because your adversary is Really Evil.  Of course, given that these excuses are frequently coming from the "Torture is actually just fine when we do it" crowd, perhaps this argument is falling on deaf ears.

For as long as Israel has been there, their citizens have been attacked by whatever the latest extreme Islamist group is called. If that happened here, you can bet they would all be irradiated. It's really silly to me to sit here in the comfort of the US and condemn people who are protecting their citizens the best they can.