I'm not buying what the Blue Jays are selling.

[MaineDolFan]

I find certain things amusing.  One thing that also gets a chuckle from me is when the media hops on a team's bandwagon and then goes on to explain how the moves that team has made will be the "difference maker."  This year, in baseball, that team in Toronto.

In a recent S.I. article a certain writer spoke about last year's Blue Jays pitching staff and the injuries that they fought through.  No mention of any other team, just how the Jays "kept it together" and posted a "division low 4.20 ERA dispite the injuries to Tedy Lilly and Roy Halladay."

Great!  Now please go on to explain that Toronto finished 80-82.  Great fighting.

Also please continue that thought process:  The Yankees, at one point in the season, had TWO starting pitchers that were healthy.  At one point in time they were heading into a four game set with Oakland with ONE pitcher scheduled and THREE "TBD" on the score card.  That isn't fighting through injuries?  Wang, Pavano, Wright, Mussina - all banged up.  Chacon, Lieter and Small lead that rag tag group to 95 wins. 

Not 80.  Yet...where's the credit?

Or Boston.  Last time I checked, Boston lost their closer (Foulke) in June for the season.  They didn't get Schilling back until late July and he was mostly ineffective.  They lost key bullpen members, Mantei and Embree (only to cut Embree).  At one point Boston's bullpen had 4 members of their AAA team holding down the fort.  They lost Matt Clement, 9-1 and 1.90 ERA to a line drive in the face.  Yet through those injuries Boston also posted 95 wins.

Not 80.  Yet...where's the credit?

New York dealt with injuries at CF and LF, at times having TONY WOMACK playing in the outfield.  Boston dealt with injuries at 2B and a 32 error tossing SS, along with holes at 3B.  But...Toronto was the scrappy team in '05?

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

And now Toronto has sacrified defense for a little extra pop at third base and first base, no clear cut second baseman after trading away Orlando Hudson, an aging catcher in Molina and their big fish pitching pick ups are a .500 career wins / losses guy in Burnett and a closer with 50 career saves. 

It's going to take 95 wins to win the AL East.  It's going to take 93-95 wins to win the wild card.  The following "upgrades" are supposed to lead me to believe that Toronto has gained 15 games: (?)

Troy Glaus over Corey Koskie

Lyle Overbay over Shea Hillenbran

Random scrub SS over Orlando Hudson

AJ Burnett over Ted Lilly

BJ Ryan over Bautista

Hmmmm.  Really?  I'm looking at a team that sold their souls for the long ball, and inconsistant one at that.  The Jays sacrificed batting average, OBP, defense and much more for guys that are injury and mistake prone (Overbay and Glaus), aging (Molina) and unproven (Burnett, Ryan). 

The Red Sox, meanwhile, have upgraded their entire infield defense.  Lowell is a better glove than Mueller, Loretta is a better glove than Bellhorn, Gonzo is a better glove than Renteria and JT Snow is a better glove than Millar.  Boston's power stays the same with Manny and Ortiz.  Trot Nixon returns, as does JTek.  Coco Crisp has superior defense to Johnny Damon, a slightly lower batting average (yet still over .300) and the same power numbers.  And he's getting better every year.

The Yankees are loaded for bear.  From top to bottom, you'll be hard pressed to find defensive or offensive holes.  Damon, Jeter, ARod, Sheff, Matsui...welcome to the top of the order. 

Boston and New York have made leaps and bounds improving their bullpens.  New York has brought in guys like Farnsworth and Myers, where Boston has brought in Riske and Tavares. 

When it comes to starters...somehow an injury prone Halladay is a better shot to stay healthy than Schilling or Randy Johnson?  Somehow AJ Burnett, a lifetime .500 guy is a more sure bet than Carl Pavano and Josh Beckett?  For what reasons? 

And once you get past Burnett, I'm supposed to quiver in fear at Towers and Lilly?  Really?  Because neither of those guys would make Boston or New York's ROSTER...and they are the #3 and #4 guys for Toronto. 

Boston and New York will have monster pitching rotations this year.  Wang has another year under his belt and is going to be a stud.  Papelbon is a monster in the making.  Schilling has been throwing every four days in simulated games and hitting 93 MPH, with great movement, on 8 out of 10 fastballs.  Randy Johnson has a year in NY under his belt.  Carl Pavano's shoulder has healed.  Matt Clement has spent the offseason reworking his deliver.  Foulke's knees are better than his days in Oakland and, last time I checked...New York has the best closer in the world.

But if people want to buy into the "sexy" notion that NYY and BOS will need to slug their way to wins...have at it. 

The pecking order will not change.  It'll be Boston / New York down the wire for the division with the other team battling for the wild card.  Both teams will exceed 90+ wins.  Troy Glaus, Lyle Overbay and AJ Burnett are not good enough for 15 -20 additional wins.  Facts are facts.  The Jays will start fast and by August will retake a good and familiar place for them.

Looking up.

Meanwhile there is a pesky little club in Florida that might just challenge Toronto for third place.  While no one has been watching, Tampa has grown some talent and are poised to start making noise.

[SCFinFan]

Maine,

You've made a believer out of me. At first, I figured you were just a Boston homer-ite. But, with this post, I really get your point. Sorry raptors, I don't think the Jays will crack 85 wins anymore. They pulled in some big fish this year, and that is enough to sell tickets... but not enough to make it to the playoffs.

[Fau Teixeira]

i predicted the sox would win the division .. i've seen nothing that has made me change my mind

[ChisoxFan2k6]

LOL That had to be the funniest thing I have ever read in my enitre life. A little rant from a 10 year old boy trying to reassure that the Red Sox are better than third place. Take a look at magazines, show me one site, or magazine that has the Red Sox in second. Please.

Let's take a look at your infield shall we:

Gonzalez
Snow/Youkillis
Lowell
Loretta

Add the 4 player's stats from last year, and we get a solid 21 hrs, a .262 AVG, in a combined total of 1785 ab's. You get one AVERAGE player at best, out of all 4 players combined. BRAVO.

Best MLB infield in baseball?

Now let's move to the Outfield

Ramirez is a beast, no questions asked.

Crisp. Not a bad player, but he's no Damon.

Nixon. Numbers keep declining. He's nothing special. Eric Hinske of the Toronto Blue Jays put up similar numbers and he's not even a starter this season.

Catchers

Varitek-Pretty solid

DH

Ortiz-Solid for a guy that does nothing but sit on the bench and hit.

Pitching

Old Man Schilling-He could win 20 games, or just get injured.

Beckett-A guy who's MRI showed that his arm is worn out. A guy that has never won more than 9 games in a season until last season.

Old Man Wells-Doesn't even want to play with Boston. Wouldn't even make Toronto's pitching staff as a starter. 4.45 ERA? WOW

Clement-Sucked before and after he got hit in the head. Transition from the NL to AL really showed.

Wakefield-Consistent pitcher. Usually good for 5 or 6 runs a game, but consistent.

Here's something to remember also:

Last season -- before they had Glaus or Overbay or Ryan -- the Blue Jays lost 44 games by one or two runs and blew 21 saves.

Now you see how those upgrades are going to help?

Good boy.

Have fun in third place, while my Chicago White Sox win another World Series.

[TonyB0D]

uh-oh....nooB talking smack to Maine about baseball....watch out....

[Sunstroke]

I always thought, for the sake of credibility (or at least common decency), that you were supposed to make at least one or two constructive/informative/entertaining posts on these boards before jumping into a thread and calling one of the moderators a 10-year old boy.

...especially a White Sox fan jumping in on a Red Sox-Blue Jays topic. (wtf?)

...especially going after someone like Maine without first establishing their own credentials.

Have fun in third place, while my Chicago White Sox win another World Series.

One has to wonder how long you lurked on these boards waiting to say this.

...about 88 years, maybe? 

[ChisoxFan2k6]

...about 88 years, maybe? 

And.... how long did the Red Sox have to wait?

Not much better huh?

[Sunstroke]

And.... how long did the Red Sox have to wait?

Not much better huh?

I'm not a Red Sox fan either... I am the proud fan of a small market team who has two WS visits, but no jewelry, in the entire glorious history of our franchise... the San Diego Padres. Win, lose...I'm a Padre 'til I die.

I do live in S FL currently though, and have enjoyed watching the Marlins win their two Series titles.

I'm still curious what would motivate someone to make those kind of comments in a first-contact capacity. Humor me, laddie...I have an interest in abnormal psychology.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Toronto had the right idea in order to challenge the Yankees and BoSox.  I just don't think they have the right combination of players.

[Sunstroke]

Toronto had the right idea in order to challenge the Yankees and BoSox. I just don't think they have the right combination of players.

I agree 100%.  That said, I also think the Jays could surprise me. If Halladay pitches a full season; if they get solid production from newcomers Ryan, Burnett and Glaus; if Boston and New York dip a little bit in the W/L column...the Jays could win the East.

I just don't expect it to happen.

I do expect it to be the same-old, same-old in the AL East. New York will probably win the division, based on talent. Boston will chase 'em the whole season, and be in the mix for a wild card in September. Until the "new" Jays show me something, I put them in third, nipping at Boston and potentially also in that wild card mix down the stretch.

[MaineDolFan]

LOL That had to be the funniest thing I have ever read in my enitre life. A little rant from a 10 year old boy trying to reassure that the Red Sox are better than third place.

Actually - I'm 11, get it right.  I'd say "welcome to the boards" but I'm generally not warm and fuzzy to someone that starts posting here with insults.  Grow up.

Take a look at magazines, show me one site, or magazine that has the Red Sox in second. Please.

One of the many (and vast) differences between you and I is this:  I don't need to look for the stories, I write them (firstly). 

Secondly - unlike you - I can evaluate a team on my own.  I don't need "magazines or sites" to give my opinion a valid jump off point.  I could see where insecure people would need to dig through those papers and web sites to validate that the team they root for (this year, anyway) is going to be good...

I can do that on my own.  First rule in sales is "know your product."  I might (MAYBE) have a couple items of knowledge when it comes to baseball. 

Finally - this thread has zero to do with the Chicago White Sox.  Feel free to start a White Sox thread and then watch as no one posts to it.  Why?  Because much like the city of Chicago itself, no one cares about the White Sox.  I'm quite sure you didn't even know Chicago HAD two baseball teams until last season.  Oh, I know - you've been a southie your whole life, season ticket holder, thick and thin.  Right, sure.  Heard that before.  Hey...hide those Angels, Diamondback, Marlin and Yankee hats that are sitting on your shelf while you say that.  Mmmk?

In regards to discussing the '06 season with you?  Not worth my time.  After all, I have my Tonka trucks to attend to.

I can't take anyone seriously that makes the following bolded statement. 

Then again...I can't take anyone serious that openly admits to being a White Sox fan...

"Ortiz-Solid for a guy that does nothing but sit on the bench and hit."  Solid.  Right.

ChiSox fan?  You.complete.me.

Edited for the dreaded typo.

[Pats2006]

Finally - this thread has zero to do with the Chicago White Sox.  Feel free to start a White Sox thread and then watch as no one posts to it.  Why?  Because much like the city of Chicago itself, no one cares about the White Sox.  I'm quite sure you didn't even know Chicago HAD two baseball teams until last season.  Oh, I know - you've been a southie your whole life, season ticket holder, thick and thin.  Right, sure.  Heard that before.  Hey...hide those Angels, Diamondback, Marlin and Yankee hats that are sitting on your shelf while you say that.  Mmmk?

hahahahaha Maine I have to say that is funny as hell!!! 

[MaineDolFan]

Take a look at magazines, show me one site, or magazine that has the Red Sox in second. Please.

Funny you should say that.  ESPN currently has a poll on line right now.  "Which team will win the American League?"  15,500+ votes.  36% say the Yankees, 21% say the Red Sox.  Third place?  White Sox.  Weird.  That's over 3,000 people.

[Lightsout32]

Listen up, the Blue Jays owned the Red Sox last season. You let in over 100 runs against us last season alone. That is freaking terrible, now your talking smack when were even better

Improvements:

Bengie Molina - Greg Zaun (Overbay)

Why: Molina 2 gold gloves, better offensive player. And hits in the clutch.

Lyle Overbay - Eric Hinske (Overybay)

Why: Overbay is not only a far better hitter, but a better defensive player/

Aaron Hill - Orlando Hudson  (Hudson)

Why: Hudson was my fav player and I have his jersey but everyone should know Aaron Hill is a better hitter and Aaron Hill is pretty good with the glove. He is not a srub he was one of our top prospects... Right now oDaWG but in the future Aaron Hill is the better player.

Troy Glaus - Corey Koskie (Glaus)

Why: Koskie can't stay healthy and his bat has been getting worse every year over the last few years. Koskie is pretty good on defence but at times he just looked lost. Overbay will help Glaus out with his throwing but Glaus is not that bad with the Glove he is actually really good when healthy. I also want to add that Troy Glaus was unable to work on his uperbody in the last offseason and he still hit 37. I see a big homerun year on the way.

Russ Adams - Will remain the teams SS.

Shea Hillenbrand - Will remain the teams DH.

Frank Catalnotto - Will remain the teams LF

Vernon Wells - Will remain the teams CF

Alex Rios - Will remain the teams RF

Roy Halladay would of won the CY Young award if he was not hit with a line drive. Not really his fluat... He was going to start the All-Star game.

A.J Burnett gives us a legit 2nd starter, we also lost Ted Lilly for a large portion of the season and he never got into a groove.

B.J. Ryan is a huge improvement over Miguel Batista, our other parts of our bullpen were solid last year but Miguel was terrible as the closer. We now have an All-Star closer.

Opening Day Team:

Starting Rotation:
1. Roy Halladay
2. A.J. Burnett
3. Ted Lilly
4. Gustavo Chacin
5. Josh Towers

Bullpen:
CL: B.J. Ryan
SU: Justin Spier
SU: Jason Frasor
MR: Vinnie Chulk
LS: Scott Schoeneweis
LR: Pete Walker
LR: Scott Downs

Defensive Alignment:
CA: Bengie Molina
1B: Lyle Overbay
2B: Aaron Hill
3B: Troy Glaus
SS: Russ Adams
LF: Frank Catalanotto
CF: Vernon Wells
RF: Alex Rios
DH: Shea Hillenbrand

Batting Order:
1. Russ Adams
2. Frank Catalanotto
3. Vernon Wells
4. Troy Glaus
5. Lyle Overbay
6. Shea Hillenbrand
7. Bengie Molina
8. Alex Rios
9. Aaron Hill

Bench:
Greg Zaun
Eric Hinske
John McDonald
Reed Johnson

This team will contend.

[ChisoxFan2k6]

Funny you should say that.  ESPN currently has a poll on line right now.  "Which team will win the American League?"  15,500+ votes.  36% say the Yankees, 21% say the Red Sox.  Third place?  White Sox.  Weird.  That's over 3,000 people.

You do realize those are popularity polls, right?

You know why I came off ignorant? Because your opening post was plain out ignorant. I've been a White Sox my whole life, believe me or not. I don't care. So me being a White Sox fan limits me to just talking about the White Sox? Wow that's ignorant.

Secondly - unlike you - I can evaluate a team on my own.  I don't need "magazines or sites" to give my opinion a valid jump off point.  I could see where insecure people would need to dig through those papers and web sites to validate that the team they root for (this year, anyway) is going to be good...

What do you think I did? I gave my OWN evaluation. I stated my own opinion about each player. What magazines or other websites does is further validates my opinion, that I'm not the only one that thinks the Red Sox are a third place team.