The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/25987/chad-henne-better-than-you-might-think

I can't read the full article because I'm not an ESPN insider.  If you are, care to share any tidbits from the article?  The 15 dropped interceptions for Sanchez is pretty shocking.  That's a HUGE number, but it does kinda confirm what I've thought while watching him, that Sanchez gets way too much credit and not enough blame.  Just the exact opposite of Henne.

Henne by the way did NOT have 19 INT's.  He had 18 and one mystery INT in Pittsburgh.

The source for this data is footballoutsiders.com. They ran a story on it right after the season. I've been reluctant to bring it up for a couple different reasons (although probably mainly because "the haters" would never change their minds).

I'll dig up a link real quick:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2010/fo-mailbag-dropped-interceptions

What exactly is a hater and where did these silly terms come from. Can someone give me a definition please. I guess that I'm showing my age !!!

considering his receivers and offensive line, 22nd in DVOA isn't good.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hater

Noun
hater (plural haters)

1.One who hates.
2.(slang, pejorative) One who expresses unfounded or inappropriate hatred or dislike, particularly if motivated by envy.

What was so special about his offensive line in 2010?  Outside of Long, no one would be considered special and Long was injured for a good part of the year as were many of the others.  By the end of the year, the Dolphins had a revolving door at just about every position on the offensive line except for LT.

Ha, ha, wiktionary. I tried to find it in a real paper dictionary and it wasn't there.

Anyhow, the term doesn't really apply. The dislike for Henne is very founded and appropriate, since his play is not up to par for a winning franchise in the NFL. And I doubt that anyone that is a so called "hater" is motivated by envy of Henne.

Envy of Henne, that's funny as hell...........

It doesn't necessarily have to be motivated by envy of Henne, it could very well be motivated by envy of other QB's.  The fact that Miami passed on Ryan for instance and chose Henne in the 2nd round seems to be a source of dislike toward Henne for some.  That would in fact fit the definition of hater perfectly.

Not really. I don't hate Henne, I just think he sucks. And he has sucked. What should we label people that approve of things ? Lovers ? Nuthuggers ? No, because at the end of the day we just don't agree. But the fact remains that Henne does indeed suck. So I guess when it's all said and done it's actually Henne's fault that there are so many "Henne Haters"..................

Let me clarify on the "haters" comment: There are some people on this site who appear to have a very strong, bordering on irrational, dislike for certain players (Henne, in the context above). They will cast every good performance by the player in the worst possible light, while highlighting every bad performance, downplaying or (usually) ignoring any mitigating circumstances.

There are plenty of rational posters. The majority, even, but there are certain players that I've just given up trying to discuss here because the "hater minority" is an exceptionally VOCAL one, drowning out and derailing any attempt at objectively discussing those players.

Who said anyone was talking about you?  Do you have a guilty conscience or something. :)

Guilty ? Ha, ha, ha, Pappy you crack me up. You made my day with that. Now it's time to take a dip in the makers mark  >:D

How good or bad he is has a lot to do with what you expect from him.

If you are comparing him to other AFCE QBs he is on par or better than 2 other teams, but sucks royally when compared to one other team's QB in the AFCE. 

If you compare him to most of the QBs in the Dolphin's history he is on par or better, if you compare him to Dan Marino he blows. 

He is an average middle of the road QB.  He is not Drew Brees but he isn't Ryan Leaf or even Jimmy Clausen bad either. 

I would define someone as a hater if Henne did something well and they refused to acknowledge it. 

Mike Mayock was on WQAM on the Michael Irvin Show the other day. Audio might be archived. He said this on Henne and the QB's in this upcoming draft....


-Gabbert will go in the top 10
-Newton may drop out of the top 10 because his work ethic
-Said he wouldn't touch Mallet in the 1st round
-Jake Locker is  a QB that he likes alot and who is faster than Cam Newton,
-Chad Henne will never be anything more than a backup QB in this league.

I'm more convinced than ever that the reason some teams never seem to get a good qb (and always flub on the ones they pick high) is that they don't have the organization and coaching required to develop a college quarterback into an NFL starter...

i don't think its development, rather having a personnel department that knows how to identify nfl starting quarterbacks. some organizations have folks in place that have much better instincts as to who has what it takes to be a starter and who doesn't.

While I'd agree that some organizations have better talent evaluaters than others, to try and make the point that that's the reason Miami, or other NFL teams, don't have great NFL starting QB's is just wrong.  There are maybe 5-8 steallar QB's in the NFL now (most of which have been in the league several years).  Most of those 5-8 QB's took development time to get where they are now.  Reality is it's a good year if there are 2 QB's that come out of college to become great starting QB's.  Then..you have to hope that your team is in the right spot to draft them.

You were so right not to bring it up!! :) Lol

the dolphins have been a mediocre to bad organization for more than the past decade almost exclusively because of bad personnel decisions. the quarterback position is the poster child for this.

at most in every draft class there are 2-3 qb's that even have a chance to become quality starters. the rest, no matter how good your coaches, will never develop into anything. its not an exact science, and some organizations have better instincts in identifying this very select number that can actually be starters.

I'll trade ya Jay Cutler for him,lol.

fans put way too much stock into coaching...

the real difference maker in terms of successful franchises are the pioli's, polian's, thompson's, wolf's, demitrioff's, heckert jr's, newsome's,etc... guys that for some reason consistently seem to be better evaluators of talent than their peers. and specially adept at identifying the qualities of good quarterbacks.

Well he's wrong about Chad Henne seeing as how he's been the starter for Miami the last 2 years.  That doesn't exactly say much about his ability to assess QB's now does it. LOL

He's saying that abotu Henne after watching him play for 2 seasons  ::)

^^ All the MORE reason to question his assessment.  He's ALREADY been a starter for 2 years, so him saying he'll NEVER be anything more than a backup is about the stupidest thing he's EVER said.

He isn't anything more than a backup probably from this point forward. That is the point!! 2 years as a starter and he has been a poor QB at best. It's a fair and honest assesment of Henne.

And Im a Henne fan and was a big Henne supporter, but the facts are what the facts are

After all these years with shit QBs I wish as much as anyone here that the Henne experiment would have worked out. But time has come to move on, he hasn't worked out and won't work out in the future.

^^^^agree. And Im not saying throw Henne to the curb. Keep him as a viable #2. As a #2 he is great. And maybe something clicks in his head over time and he can be a viable #1, but right now he is nothing more than a back-up QB in this league with a dim future of being anything more than that.

henne has rocks for brains... on the verge of an players lockout, given strict guidance from the league not to be studying playbooks and having offensive meetings, what does he do? just basically brag to anyone and everyone that he has had a month of studying the playbook with the new o coordinator and meetings with the new qb coach.

So it is a bad thing that a player is more concerned with improving his skills and being ready to be competitive when the season starts than he is concerned with the labor politics? 

I would say he has his priorities correct.   

Dolpfan13 has a point, though...

The League has been (is) INSANELY strict with teams this off season. The rule is: If it's not something teams would normally do, it's not allowed. Several teams have gotten the "no-go" to hold team meetings -- one team even had to drop sending generic work-out DVDs to players.

Why? It's all down to a fear of lawsuits from the NFLPA (or collections of individual players, once the union decertifies).

However, it's insane to think that the Dolphins (or any other team) could hold a month of team meetings and not have the union find out about it. You can't very well have meetings with players and hope to keep it a secret from those same players... So, in the end, I very much doubt any damage was done by Henne's comments.

the league communicated to teams that this is against the rules. for god's sake, if you cheat, don't freaking call yourself out on it to the media.

it's like brady talking about all the rams plays he went over during super bowl week with reporters.

I disagree.  Unless Miami lands a pretty big-time free agent (have no idea who that might be), I think you can expect to see next season get started with Henne under center.  There's no way that any rookie from this year's crop of candidates is gonna step in from day 1.  It's just not gonna happen.

And things get even more dicey should the owners lock out the players and there's a shortened pre-season and/or training camp.  Even a free agent would be hard pressed to have enough reps with the 1st string to unseat Henne unless he's Brett Favre or something and God help us all if that's the case.

That facts are that Henne has been unspectacular as a starter the last 2 years, but there's still hope that he could turn out to be a serviceable QB despite what you think.  I don't think he's ever going to be a superstar in this league, but he doesn't have to be.  Lots of QB's take a couple years to really hit their stride.  Sparano and Ireland are both still saying he's the starter.  Unless/Until they start saying that he isn't I think it's safe to assume that he is.

There are two things I have learned to never trust when a coach says it #1 X is our starter #2 I am not leaving for X job.

Normally that would be the case, but this is a special case.  Henne is practically the only QB on the roster.

Last report I saw was that if Miami picks up 2 QB's this off-season, (they are expected to draft one and sign a veteran free-agent at some point), Thigpen is the odd-man out.  Thigpen has never impressed Sparano from all indications and I didn't hear Henne say that Thigpen was in the room with him and Dabol in the meetings.  Sparano only benched Henne to give Pennington a shot, not Thigpen.  And don't even bring up the New England game which was as much to save Henne from further embarrasment or getting injured as it was to give Thigpen a chance.

That only leaves Tom Brandstater on the practice squad.  With the work stoppage looming, there won't be any free-agents coming or any draft choices taking any practice reps in the spring.  Chances are that no one on the team will even know the offense besides Henne and possibly Brandstater when the season starts.

Just because Henne will start this season for the Fins at QB, doesn't make him good. It shows that our coaches are clueless. Our front office stinks. And our team is bad. Henne starting for the Fins isn't a sign that Hene is a good QB all of a sudden! I wouldn't take it as that either.

Maybe what it indicates is there aren't any Free Agent upgrades that would make a noticeable improvement.  Should the coaches/front office trade away some of our few draft picks to get a mediocre free agent?  Should the front office trade away this years picks, and future picks, to trade up and get one of the few talented QB's in this year's draft? IMO this just isn't a year to get a QB, better to upgrade the positions were you can get some quality players.

No upgrades over Chad Henne? Are you kidding me. The guy flat out was terrible last year, trust me there are upgrades on the FA market. Don't be a blind homer! I am actually a Henne supporter but to say there aren't any upgrades out there, that is flat out lying or ignoring the reality!!

And why would you have to trade away draft picks to sign a free agent? You lost me on that. Do you know how free agency works? (not being sarcastic, but you said it.)

Name some unrestricted free agents that would be a significant upgrade over Henne that aren't 32 years or older (anyone older is just a one or two year stop gap not building the franchise)

Who are these great upgrades??

Vince Young, love him or hate him is a better player than Chad Henne.  Not saying Young is great, but he's better than Hene. In Young's last 21 games he has thrown only 6 INT's. Henne throws that every 2 games!!

Bruce Gradkowski actually took a Raiders offense with no WR's of note and had them playing at a high level. He is a much better player TODAY than Henne is.

Matt Hassellbeck as a 1 year stop gap (ala Pennington in 2008) is better than Henne. Hell he won Seattle a playoff game last year!!!  Sign Hasselbeck and draft a kid QB and let him compete with Henne for the #2 job. Sounds good to me!

Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure if I looked at a list of FA QB's I could find more. But don't tell me there aren't guys out there who aren't better than Henne. Henne (who I like by the way) is a walking turnover at this point in the game. He isn't helping the Fins any when he is under center

So whats wrong with a 1 or 2 year stop gap while you DRAFT someone and let him sit and learn? Why is that bad? Last time we did that we went 11-5 and made the playoffs. Yeah, why copy that formula again since it actually worked  ::)

In 28 games since Henne took over the starting position (27 starts and one nearly full game that he didn't play the first series), he's thrown 32 interceptions = 1.14 per start. In 2 games, Henne would throw roughly two or three interceptions, not six.

Maybe it's just me, but when discussing player stats, I really prefer the "reality in pursuit of truth" approach more than the "exaggerated to support a point" variety.

Statistical PSA aside, I actually agree with most of your point, and would have no problem with seeing a stopgap QB under center if:

1) The coaching staff believes that Henne doesn't still have the ability to develop into a quality QB.

2) The coaching staff feels that the stopgap QB gave Miami a better chance to win each week.

3) We draft the QB we want to develop now, rather than make the stopgap into an open-ended gap.

4) It's anyone other than Vince Young. I won't argue that he has more physical talent than Henne, because I'm fairly certain that he does. I just think that this coaching staff has enough on its plate without having to deal with an emotionally unstable hothead on the field and in the locker room.

henne is a bad nfl qb right now. i hope he gets magic in a bottle, and drastically improves over this next year. the dolphins need to significantly upgrade the qb position if they have any chance of competing the next few years.

Whatever, you are missing the forest from the trees. Henne threw 6 INT's from Thanksgiving on last season when the spotlight was on him to produce and had 2 lost fumbles (and Henne hardly played the final game of the year vs NE ). Young has that same amount on INT's in his last 21 games. GET IT? GOT IT? That's the point!!! Henne's numbers are far worse than Young's.  You can spin the numbers anyway you want, bottom line.... Young > Henne (right now, in the past, and probably going forward)

Henne in his short career is a turnover machine. In those post-Thanksgiving games last year he had 6 INT's and 2 lost fumbles. 8 Turnovers in 5 games (not counting the final game in which he was hardly on the field!!) Average that out Rainman!!   Vince Young ISN'T a turnover machine, Henne is!The numbers back it up!

I got all your points the first time...did you get mine about exaggerating to support your point?

Or will we have more of these pleasant little interludes?

It is also safe to say the Titans had a better running game than we did to take some of the pressure off the QB to produce.

You never made a point in your rambling and if you did I didn't read it.  I read up until you took a pot shot at me, at that point I stopped reading what you wrote and skipped over the rest and only responded to the part I read. Which was like the 1st sentence. I didn't read the rest of what you said with the namecalling/attack/pot shot and all. Sorry!!  Grow up and learn to have a civil discussion and maybe I will address MORE of your points. Otherwise I am just skipping over it as its like a broken record at thsi point

Aaron Rodgers had no running game, didn't stop him any. Lots of QB's have crap running games, NOT AN EXCUSE!!

Not to mention an offensive line.

Just to clarify. 

Mike you exaggerated and gave false blatantly false statistics.  Sunstroke pointing out that you exaggerated and gave blatantly false statistics is NOT namecalling/attack/pot shot. 

And who made you the "poor man's lawyer" ... ::) whatever,  I was making a general point which someone took way too seriously and took moments out of their life to actually begin  looking up "exact" numbers to bring out stats with decmial points to prove me "wrong" (so funny).  The point being, the amount of INT's Vince Young has thrown in his last 21 games (a stat I read in the newspaper last week), 6,  .....is about what Henne throws every 2 games or so. I was talking about turnovers in general, sorry I didn't run this by my newspaper editor and have him look it up before I hit POST. I was making the point Henne turns the ball over a lot and costs us games. Something any normal person would infer.  Point being, Henne throws a ton of INT's and fumbles alot and is a walking turnover. Young doesn't turn the ball over almost any.  Some of you are so begging to get in an internet/message board fight you take every sentence so literal and look to start something. Like I said, you can't see the forest from the trees! Like most arguments you miss the general point being made and zone in on some little piece of minutiae and will fight it to the bloody (I know how much some of you LOVE that word)  end for some unkown reason other than you have WAY too much time on your hands and your lack any real social or personal life.

You made an implicit accusation against Sunstroke claiming he made a personal attack.  As a moderator of this board (although not this section) I thought it would be in the best interest to all involved to point out that Sunstroke had in fact not violated the rules of the board and had not engaged in a personal attack.

So to answer your question --  Dave Gray. 

Allow me to weigh in on Henne:

I believe he struck out last year.

3 games against three of the worst teams in the league at home in the last part of the season

3 poor performances, littered with int

3 losses, of which he played a major role

3 strikes and you're out. 

Then again, do we have anything better at this point?  ???

Thigpen may not be better but he certainly isn't any worse. Many will disagree with me on this, I just don't want to see Henne anymore. I've had enough of him........

Thigpen isn't under contract to the Fins so he isn't even an option anymore for them really.  Taking the lockout thing out of the picture, when football begins for the Fins this year...Henne and Thigpen won't be brought back as the 1-2 punch for this team. CHECK THAT, I forgot who is running our team, IF they are, then both Ireland and Sparano just wrote their ass outta Miami. You can't have them as your 1-2 at QB and expect to win more than 7 games or sell any tickets to games this upcoming year from a business standpoint and have a motivated fan base.

^^ Miami placed a 2nd round restricted free agent tender on Thigpen. Depending on how the CBA negotiations go, it's possible he could be back with the Fins next year. Unlikely, but not impossible.

^^^ I doubt anyone would give a 2nd round for Thigpen so I would say likely if the new CBA mirrors the old. 

I would rather have Pennington and his pop-gun arm back than Thigpen

Henne provides bigger up-side than Thigpen.  Thigpen, playing on his best day, is marginally better than Henne playing poorly.  Henne on his best day makes Thigpen look like Akili Smith.

I know you're all sick of Henne, but I wanna see what he can do in a new offensive scheme...

^ It's not like we have a lot of choice in the matter.

 ::) Need to see him suck more to come to the conclusion he can't play? Yet you will be the same one crying like a baby if we ever give Jamarcus Russell a contract. I mean lets see what Jamarcus can do in a new offensive scheme.....USING YOUR OWN LOGIC!!!!!!

Henne couldn't beat the Lions, Browns, and Bills at home with the season on the line and pretty much LOST those games all by himself. Yet you want to see more....unreal

In the NFL, a brain is required for pretty much any offensive scheme... If Jamarcus gets another shot at this level, I'm convinced that he will fail for the same reasons he failed in Oakland. If I'm wrong, I'll take fork to some crow souffle, but I just don't see Jamarcus actually getting smarter any time soon.

^^missed the point being made. Nobody was defending giving Jamarcus a chance. Was making an analogy

Got your point (as always). You missed mine (as always), which was that a new system can't possibly help a QB with no brain. Henne doesn't have that issue, therefore the comparison you made isn't very valid.

Let me break it down in simpler terms...

Henne = has potential for improved performance in a new offensive system.
Russell = has no potential for improved performance in a new offensive system.

In short, yes.
We all agreed that the offensive game plan and coaching was suspect last season.  Its a variable that has an effect on other variables, like QB play.  Its your OPINION that he "blew three games on his own" when in fact no one knows what went wrong in those games, and surely multiple people played a part in the loss (hello, Carpenter missed 4 FG's in the Buffalo game).

So, yes, if we give him a new scheme and new coaches, and he still sucks, I will be convinced that he is a terrible QB.  Until then, its pure speculation.

I see it the other way around myself. We have the proof that he sucks. Him turning into a quality QB with a new scheme and new coaches is pure speculation........

A very very poor analogy.