The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

This maybe could have gone under the players supporting Incognito thread but I didn't want to see it get buried. Most people have been waiting for Pouncey to speak since he was not only a teammate and leader, but the person who spent the most time with the two of them.  I don't think many of you will "get it" due to your lawyering but it does give you the perspective of how players and the league see things. Regardless of who is "OMGing" on TV there is a different culture for these Alpha males that exists in the testosterone world.  In fact, Pouncey said "Dolphins players don’t feel Incognito isn't getting a “fair defense” in this situation."



By Chris Perkins
11:49 a.m. EST, November 6, 2013

 DAVIE – Dolphins center Mike Pouncey spoke to ESPN’s Cris Carter, the Hall of Fame wide receiver, on Wednesday, off camera, regarding the Dolphins’ situation between guard Richie Incognito and tackle Jonathan Martin.

 According to Carter, Pouncey said Martin, at times, wondered whether he was “cut out” to play in the NFL.

 Carter said Pouncey told him no players consider Incognito a racist. He said Pouncey and the team’s six-member Leadership Council didn’t know about Incognito’s alleged voicemail for Martin prior to it being made public recently.


 Hear what Carter said Pouncey told him as far as the players' feelings toward Incognito:

 "They don't feel as if he's a racist, they don't feel as if he picked on Jonathan repeatedly and bullied him, but if they could do it all over again there would be situations that they might change but they’re very, very comfortable with Richie,” Carter said.


 “They think it’s sad, not only that Jonathan’s not on the football team, but also that Richie is being depicted as a bigot and as a racist.”

 Carter, who said he’s known Pouncey since Pouncey was 15 years old, said Dolphins players don’t feel Incognito isn't getting a “fair defense” in this situation.

 “That’s what hurts them the most,” Carter said.

 Regarding the voicemail, Carter explained there’s a culture, pop culture and athletic culture, in which the “n-word,” in certain contexts, is acceptable. So Pouncey didn’t find it racist or consider it bullying when he recently found out about the voicemail Incognito allegedly left for Martin using the "n-word."

 “He said he thought it was bad,” Carter said, “but he thought he was just trying to spur Jonathan on to have a good off-season, and he wishes the words would have been different, though.”

 Carter said Pouncey told him there were times Martin struggled as a rookie last season and during this past off-season when Martin wondered “Am I cut out for this? Can I do this job?”

 Carter said Pouncey also told him he wasn’t asked by any coaches to “toughen up” Martin. A  Sun Sentinel exclusive said Incognito was asked by coaches to “toughen up” Martin after Martin missed a voluntary workout during the spring, and Incognito might have taken those orders too far.

Copyright © 2013, South Florida Sun-Sentinel

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/sfl-pouncey-its-sad-incognito-is-being-depicted-as-a-racist-20131106,0,3589047.story

To summarize:

According to Pouncey: Richie Incognito and Aaron Hernandez are two wonderful loving and caring people who would never hurt anyone. 

^^^ And that Martin also doubted his own abilities in the NFL (I'm taking that to mean mentally rather than physically).

Insertion of one word into a voice mail doesn't make someone racist.  We, the public, have ZERO insight into how people talk to each other behind closed doors.  This was a personal, closed-door conversation between two co-workers. 

I hate how it is being blown up into a race issue.  There is so much more complexity to this issue that one word in a voice mail is making it a racist issue.  Its just not.

A black guy called in to the radio this morning and said the same thing. Said many people need history lessons because we've become so privy that we think every time someone bumps into a black person it's because they are racist.

I don't think that Incognito is a racist because he used the n-word.  That was never my position.  But it is my position that Incognito used that word inappropriately (solely based on the way it was perceived by Martin) and the team must react accordingly.  You can't be using the n-word to your co-workers if they aren't cool with it.  It doesn't matter if they "should" be cool with it. 

^^^^ If he's used that word with him numerous times and Martin has called him redneck, cracker .. or whatever in general conversation .... does that change anything in your eyes? Because that's exactly how I see this. Many of those guys use what would seem racial terms to talk to their "family" as Ricky put it.

From what I know or understand is that Martin never has any issues giving or taking until the flight home from New England. Maybe not giving as much but he did give.

How do you know how it was perceived by Martin?  Martin has yet to say a word about anything.  People are all appalled on his behalf.

Brian, you're being pretty silly with these "but how do you know that?" points.  No one here was born yesterday and we can all connect the extremely simple and straightforward dots.  The voicemails came from Martin.  He's the one who saved them and released them.  What does that tell you about his perception of their content?

I can tell you with a good deal of certainty that even if Martin was potentially OK with Incognito saying n*****, he's not OK with being called a half-n*****.  That is (generally) not how black people use that word; that's how racists use it.

(cue furious Google search for a black person using that phrase at some point in recorded history)

This was a cheap shot. Very uncharacteristic for you Hoodie. Seems like some people here are rubbing off on you.

I am making the reasonable assumption that because Martin saved this voicemail since April and used it as evidence in a formal complaint against Incognito, that he objected to its content.  Am I going too far?

Curious if Cognito meant it as a term of endearment when he called Warren Sapp the same thing in a game and kicked him? -EK

I'm making an assumption here, but I have voicemails on my phone from 3 years ago.  I don't typically check my voicemails.  Just like I have 568 messages in my TDMMC PM inbox. 

To my knowledge the voicemail transcript was released by Martin's agent, who's interest is to protect his client from looking like an idiot.  Not saying anything about the content, and not defending Incognito, but I want to hear from Martin directly before assuming HE was deeply hurt and offended, just because the media wants US to be offended.

^ I think you're reaching.

But we've both made our points.

Endearment is not the opposite of racial. I've seen the team used racially, as endearment, and by people who just use the word as a way to refer to someone. I've seen black people preparing to fight a white guy say it.

I was being sarcastic, given the implication that Incognito somehow used the word as anything BUT offensive. -EK

A lot of players are rushing to Incognito's defense.  Brian Hartline is saying that racial tinged threat over voicemail was a joke.  Not sure what to make of this.

Came out at the press conference that Martin was playing the voicemail earlier this summer to the team and laughing about it and joking about it
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2013/11/brain-hartline-says-martin-played-vms-for-team-thought-they-were-funny/

^^I didn't believe from the beginning that this was the reason for Martin leaving the Dolphins and the more I hear the more I am convinced of this. Martin was having issues with the Dolphins even prior to this alleged bullying incident. I don't know about what, perhaps the jokes, racism etc were having an effect on him but he hid it and it went further than that. He just wasn't sure that he wanted to be in the NFL. This is not that uncommon. Ricky Williams battled with this as well. It's not an easy job. The physical and mental strain it puts on you is very tough. It's not for everyone. I believe this whole VM thing came about as Martin and his agents were looking for a way to justify his leaving the Dolphins.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong.

Yes ... thank you!! Finally ... somebody gets it! That's exactly what happened.

Do you know what the most telling thing about this story is? Hartline says the Dolphins ordered the players not to comment Monday but that they all decided to let loose and "defend ourselves" today.

Incognito is easy to bash or paint in a negative light just as I'm an easy target to be painted a meathead bully. In some cases both of those may be true but not in this story I'm afraid. Incognito has been painted the scapegoat for Martin's weakness. He broke down after a poor performance in New England. Ask the people on the plane home.

Clabo and Tannehill have come out as well. “I think if you had asked Jon Martin a week before who his best friend on the team was, he would have said Richie Incognito,” Tannehill said. “The first guy to stand up for Jonathan when anything went down on the field, any kind of tussle, Richie was the first guy there. When we would hang on off the field, outside football, who was together? Richie and Jon. I’m not in those guys’ shoes, I can’t explain what’s going on.”

It does seem like the pendulum is swinging back in the other direction with many Dolphin players supporting Incognito.  At this point, my gut feel is that there is something bad at the core of this, but I'm going to wait and see what the NFL investigation comes up with before making any sweeping statements about who, if anyone is to blame.

The investigation will  get to the truth. Starting to believe Martin might have some social anxiety disorder stuff which is leading to some odd behavior. Like if he was playing the famous voicemail and laughing about it for months and now using it as evidence and such to me that screams of something  bigger going on here with Martin. I don't know, I'm sure we will keep getting more "new" information every day and eventually the truth with the NFL investigation.

My opinion is he is probably a mamma's boy (not that there is anything wrong with that) and that they being Harvard lawyers were looking for the "reason" he broke down. I bet Martin may feel a bit guilty with all the crap he's caused the team and Richie.

Martin, Incognito and their reps are scheduled to meet soon. The NFLPA will be there.

I don't like the term "mammas boy" and that is just a term to slam a guy which isn't fair in this instance....social anxiety is a real disorder and something not to laugh at. To me, with the "new" information I am reading tonight I wouldn't be shocked to hear Martin has social anxiety or something along those lines and he needs help. But the investigation will clear this all up in due time. The truth will come out

It's not a negative term. Some guys lean on their mother's more than others. I know plenty of momma's boy's that can kick some serious butt.

Interesting tweet from Adam Beasley ‏@AdamHBeasley 15m
It's pretty clear the Dolphins locker room thinks the whole country got played like a fiddle.

nor is the n-word.   ::)

Like usual ... I think you are a bit limited or uninformed in your opinion. Elvis Presley was a mamma's boy as well as Frank Sinatra, Collin Farrel, Douglas MacArthur, Kobe Bryant, and even thug rapper Lil Wayne. 

Calling someone a momma's boy in general is considered an insult.  Using the N-word in general is considered racist.  There are maybe a few exceptions  where that was not the intent of the speaker but it is rare. 

You haven't hung around with many black people have you.  >:D

^^^ Yeah, it should be modified so that only if a white person uses the N-word then it's considered racist. :)

In this day and age so does the white younger crowd. The lines are being blurred all the time with each multi-racial generation.

It's been my experience that white people who cite black people who say the N word to each other as a reason they can also speak it, are just flat out bigots who are dying to use the word themselves.  But then again, I've lived most of my life in the South surrounded by dumbass bigots who are dying to call any black person the N word for any reason possible.  They are just upset they can't get in the N word action.

More like the hypocrisy of doing something and then telling someone of a different color that they can't do the same thing. The true definition of racism and discrimination.

I'm sorry. Has not being able to use the N word kept you out of jobs, restaurants, schools, or neighborhoods? Has it somehow followed you around  a store? Has it detained you, accused you of stealing after you've shown receipt? Has it robbed you of rights guaranteed by the constitution? When any of these apply, then it still only scratches the surface of the definition of racism.

Remember there is no law preventing you from saying it. You can say it whenever, to whomever you want. The difference now, is that the colored folk have a right to not accept it anymore. So where's the racism or hypocrisy in that? Or is it that it'd morally its not accepted now? But back in the day it was both legal & moral. Because blacks were seen as less than human.

So again, has not being able to use the N word somehow made you less than human? Has it oppressed you?

no-one is telling you you can't toss the n bombs around at will .. go for it ..  .. do it everywhere .. do it at work, school .. the supermarket .. noone will stop you

Article from ex-dolphin lineman:

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?eref=sihp

Oh, now bury our head in the sand let's pretend that there's not a double standard when it comes to race. The funny part is that you don't even try to see the double standard and the hypocrisy. White people that say n***** in any context are racist while blacks can use it with impunity. Conversely, I have never heard a white person say "creepy ass cracker", which is a racial slur also. But somehow it's use by a black person is defended by other blacks. Miss Black America, BET, NAACP, and the UNCF are all somehow OK to have for blacks. Try that shit with Caucasians and there will be a revolt. Black hypocrisy and a sense of entitlement to things that only they can have as payback for slavery and racism in the past. None of these problems will be solved with black revenge.