Questions for military people on the thirteenth year of the Hollywood shootout

[dolphins4life]

What I don't get was why they didn't call for SWAT as soon as they heard the automatic gunfire in the bank?

And the fact is, SWAT couldn't penetrate the robber's armour, so what would the next step be?  A knockout gas?

[Defense54]

What I don't get was why they didn't call for SWAT as soon as they heard the automatic gunfire in the bank?

And the fact is, SWAT couldn't penetrate the robber's armour, so what would the next step be?  A knockout gas?

Unfortunately its a buisness that's ruled by recent events. Very knee jerk reaction decision making. If a department chief where to arm people to the teeth without sufficent cause they could look like bullies or war mongers. its a very political chess game at that level. Most of the time it takes a tragic incident to occur before suffient action can be taken . You can bet that the NYPD and the LAPD as well as several other large Law Enforcement agencies now have armed forces level gear with ex Armed forces personnel manning it.  But to get the backing they needed events like this one and 9/11 to refer to.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

If a department chief where to arm people to the teeth without sufficent cause they could look like bullies or war mongers.

Which would hinder law enforcement.  Giving police bigger guns 99% of the time will not doing anything to deter crime. 

Crime is solved and prevented by having citizen who trust the police talk to the police.  Having cops walk around with M16s isn't going to do anything to make them more approachable. 

The most effective cop is the a beat cop who looks like the folks who live in the same neighborhood he walks for 20 years, know all the regulars at coffee shop, knows what kids live in the neighborhood and which ones don't and has earned the trust of all the neighborhood gossips. 

[Defense54]

Which would hinder law enforcement.  Giving police bigger guns 99% of the time will not doing anything to deter crime. 

Crime is solved and prevented by having citizen who trust the police talk to the police.  Having cops walk around with M16s isn't going to do anything to make them more approachable. 

The most effective cop is the a beat cop who looks like the folks who live in the same neighborhood he walks for 20 years, know all the regulars at coffee shop, knows what kids live in the neighborhood and which ones don't and has earned the trust of all the neighborhood gossips. 

While I agree with you I think you missed my point. We all now have AR15's and shotguns in our cars , we can't take them out unless justified. But we have'em.   10 Yr's ago that wasn't the case.  It took a tragedy to make it OK to carry them.

[MaineDolFan]

Nice BS way to try and end a discussion.

No, it was an accurate one.  I have experience in the subject matter.  You do not.

If you are former military than you should know damn well that an MP unit can't be mobilized for bank robbery.  So your 8 min stat is total BS and you are talking out of your ass.   

Please point out the part in my post where I said the local MP unit should have been deployed?  I didn't.  I said that based on the location of the unit to the location of the event, it would take about 8 minutes for them to reach their target "if asked."  So no, I'm not "talking out of my ass."  The unit is a National Guard unit and, thus, under the leadership of the esteemed governor of that state. 

That unit could be asked to direct traffic, if need be.  A nation guard unit, again under the directive of the governor (or territorial AG) can mobilize a unit for an domestic emergency.  Doesn't happen - but could.  Christ, my unit was mobilized once to fill sand bags and try to avoid the flooding of downtown area of Augusta, Maine and attempting to protect businesses.  Another time I was mobilized to go door to door during an ice storm and mass power outage on a search and rescue. 

Again, I served.  You didn't.  I know.  You don't.  Ain't no thing.

My statements are based on fact and experience.  I realize the audience I speak to (meaning you) and that little four letter word (f-a-c-t) scares you...but it is what it is.  Say it with me.  C'mon, it feels good...

FACT.

[MaineDolFan]

It took a tragedy to make it OK to carry them.

You could argue that this type of firepower isn't always readily needed in every day law enforcement, though.  Couldn't you?  I agree you should have it, however specialized units were developed specfically for these type of events.

An AR15 is a bad mo-fo. Say you were a first responder on scene at this event and had an AR15.  You still would have been under gunned due to the heavy armor these idiots were prancing around in.  It would have squared up the fight a little, to be sure, but either way you would have needed that hammer unit to bring the heat to squash it.  Yes?

That said, I'm glad you have that in your car.  The world is too crazy for you not to.  I pray you never have to use it.

[Dave Gray]

Again, I served.  You didn't.  I know.  You don't.  Ain't no thing.

That is a terrible, terrible argument.

[Phishfan]

I fogot how out of touch with the world I was in 1997. I was living in WV with no television and working at a ski resort where I usually spent the day from before sunrise to after nightfall. I didn't even know when this event happened.

[bsmooth]

Maine,
I understand what you are trying to say, but as a former serving member of the 40th ID there is one problem with your scenario.
While units are allowed to keep weapons in their arms room safe, all ammunition is stored at Camp San Luis Obispo. This is because there have been several high profile break in's to armories and weapons were stolen.
During the LA Riots in 92, the first units on scene had no ammunition. My unit did not recieve ammo until we landed at El Toro.
Unless they changed the rules after the riots, that MP unit, while well trained and I am sure eager to help would have had no ammunition.
A lot has changed after this incident. I know for a fact that the CHP now has equipped their cars with both a shotgun and a high powered rifle and extra ammo in the trunk in case a firefight breaks out. I am sure other departments have done the same.

[MaineDolFan]

Maine,
I understand what you are trying to say, but as a former serving member of the 40th ID there is one problem with your scenario.
While units are allowed to keep weapons in their arms room safe, all ammunition is stored at Camp San Luis Obispo. This is because there have been several high profile break in's to armories and weapons were stolen.
During the LA Riots in 92, the first units on scene had no ammunition. My unit did not recieve ammo until we landed at El Toro.
Unless they changed the rules after the riots, that MP unit, while well trained and I am sure eager to help would have had no ammunition.
A lot has changed after this incident. I know for a fact that the CHP now has equipped their cars with both a shotgun and a high powered rifle and extra ammo in the trunk in case a firefight breaks out. I am sure other departments have done the same.

I couldn't imagine this situation being one that an MP unit would need to be deployed to - I was merely trying to make a connection with response time. 

I think it's wild that you had to wait to get your ammo from El Toro!  Holy crap.  But, as you say, that was '92 that we're talking about. 

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.  You were on the ground for the riots?  I would love to hear your accounts of that.

Dave - of course it's a terrible argument.  Not lost on me.  Again, please consider my specific audience member in this regard. 

[MaineDolFan]

Logical fallacy = Argument of Authority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

If a person can't speak from experience, what point of view are they able to?

In this situation, again, I've been in a position where rabid mobilization was required (1).  I understand what is required for that level of readiness.  I know the area that we're speaking of very well (2), so I can speak to the geographic challenges posed to get from 'a' to 'b.'

Combining my actual experience with 1 + 2 makes for one hell of an educated guess, one that - far and away - exceeds an educated guess of someone that lacks experience of 1 + 2. 

Experience in a subject matter, now and again, actually does provide someone an upper hand when it comes to knowledge regarding a subject matter.

Yes? 

[Dave Gray]

If a person can't speak from experience, what point of view are they able to?

You were not speaking from experience.  You were ending an argument, based on your perceived authority, rather than on the merits of your argument, from that experience.  It is pompous and it is also a poor argument.

[bsmooth]

I couldn't imagine this situation being one that an MP unit would need to be deployed to - I was merely trying to make a connection with response time. 

I think it's wild that you had to wait to get your ammo from El Toro!  Holy crap.  But, as you say, that was '92 that we're talking about. 

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.  You were on the ground for the riots?  I would love to hear your accounts of that.

Dave - of course it's a terrible argument.  Not lost on me.  Again, please consider my specific audience member in this regard. 

It was an interesting experience. To go from growing up in a small town that had one black kid in the high school to south central LA was eye opening to say the least.

[MaineDolFan]

^I am the 180 of you, of sorts.

One of my grandparents is black.  I have a sister, she is very dark and quite clearly took that part of the family lineage.  She literally looks like she is from a different family.  Weird how that happens.  I am pasty white, I make Casper the Ghost look Latino.  I grew up in East Oakland and was one of maybe four white kids that I knew. 

When we moved to Maine I was 16...culture shock.  Short of my own family (the side that is white), I had never been around this many white people in my life...much less all the trees and open space.  We moved from Oakland, CA to Clinton, ME (until we settled in Augusta).  Clinton is about 30 minutes north of Augusta and home to less than 5,000 souls.  A blinking light on Main Street, a gas station that closes for the day at 4pm and one grocery store.  And lots and lots of white folk! 

I get what you are saying!