The Brian Flores complaints as it relates to the Dolphins

[pondwater]

Minorities move here al the time with nothing and succeed because of the opportunities. Many minorities (definitely not all) who are born here tend to want to play victim to things that happened before they were born. This is the land of opportunity and not the land that outcomes are equal regardless of effort. I agree agree some people suffer racism but it is far les common than is reported. Typically people are either generally good and the rest are assholes ... racists and all.

Funniest thing to me about Flores' speaking engagements is he mentioned several times how there should be more black coaches. He goes on to say there are plenty of qualified black coaches in the league but are being held back by racism. Well Mr Flores hired 5 coordinators in three years and non of them were black. Does that mean he is racist or he hired the people who he thought would help him win?  Mr Integrity seems to have no issues speaking out both sides of his mouth.

Someone please explain to me how and why there should be more black coaches. There were 3 black head coaches last year, that's about 10%. The 2020 census had black people at 12.4%. The amount of black head coaches is closely representative of the overall black population, it's simple math. Are we arguing that there should be a minimum of 4 head coaches at all times? Due to the nature of football some years it might dip, some years it might be higher. And it's only going to grow moving forward due to external pressure from people pushing an agenda.

So I'll ask again, someone please explain to me why there should be more black coaches when that group is already mathematically represented for their demographic. Obviously some people think the percentage should be higher. How many black head coaches should there be?  What about queer transgender head coaches in the NFL? How many are there? What about women head coaches in the NFL? How many are there?

Who can tell me how racism in the NFL has affected Flores recently? And how do the Dolphins fit into your answer?

[Spider-Dan]

Funniest thing to me about Flores' speaking engagements is he mentioned several times how there should be more black coaches. He goes on to say there are plenty of qualified black coaches in the league but are being held back by racism. Well Mr Flores hired 5 coordinators in three years and non of them were black. Does that mean he is racist or he hired the people who he thought would help him win?

This is a fair criticism.  I would, however, want to know the breakdown of the rest of his coaching staff, because otherwise it's just a game of moving goalposts: if he hires minority coordinators then what about the position coaches, if he hires minority position coaches then what about the strength and conditioning coaches, etc.  Having an overall diverse coaching staff does not necessarily mean that every single category of coach is itself diverse.

But again, if he didn't practice what he preaches, your point is very reasonable.

[Spider-Dan]

How has Flores not been treated fairly in his NFL career?

Someone please explain to me how and why there should be more black coaches.

There are two separate issues at play: 1) Flores' personal experience, and 2) the NFL's hiring system itself.

1) The fact that someone at Buffalo (allegedly) felt comfortable enough talking to BB about Flores' interview as a formality, when the decision to hire Daboll was already made, is the problem.  One of the primary ways to combat racism in our society is to make it socially and professionally unacceptable.  So when you are in a front office and you're required to interview minority coaches as part of the Rooney Rule, you should be scared of anyone else finding out that you're only doing it for show.  In fact, you should be SO scared that you take every possible step to make it seem like you are ACTUALLY considering them for the job!  That's the point: if enough owners and GMs and team presidents feel pressure to simulate being anti-racist for long enough, and they are heavily punished every time they let the mask slip, eventually up-and-coming new owners and GMs and team presidents won't be able to tell that it's theater, so they'll actually believe it and act accordingly!  This is literally how overt racism was made unacceptable in our society, and why teams need to be punished when they get too comfortable treating the Rooney Rule like a joke.

2) 12.4% of Americans may be black, but 57% of NFL players are.  Consequently, one would expect that former NFL players would be some of the top candidates for NFL assistant coaches (which should eventually result in them being likely candidates for coordinators and later, head coaches), but for some reason, this does not seem to be the case in the NFL.

Now, you might be inclined to question the premise of whether former players should be top candidates for assistant coaching jobs in the first place... and that's a fair point!  So in response, I would simply ask: what percentage of NHL coaches and MLB managers/coaches are former NHL/MLB players?  (This is a genuine question.)  Because if former players are heavily recruited as coaches in NHL and MLB, but not in the NFL... we should probably ask why that is.

[Downunder Dolphan]

The NFL is expected to investigate the Miami tanking allegation brought up by Flores, which Ross has strongly denied.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/brian-flores-lawsuit-nfl-to-investigate-tanking-tampering-allegations-against-dolphins-owner-stephen-ross-speaks/
https://www.nfl.com/news/dolphins-owner-stephen-ross-responds-to-brian-flores-allegations-nfl-s-expected-

[pondwater]

There are two separate issues at play: 1) Flores' personal experience, and 2) the NFL's hiring system itself.

1) The fact that someone at Buffalo (allegedly) felt comfortable enough talking to BB about Flores' interview as a formality, when the decision to hire Daboll was already made, is the problem.  One of the primary ways to combat racism in our society is to make it socially and professionally unacceptable.  So when you are in a front office and you're required to interview minority coaches as part of the Rooney Rule, you should be scared of anyone else finding out that you're only doing it for show.  In fact, you should be SO scared that you take every possible step to make it seem like you are ACTUALLY considering them for the job!  That's the point: if enough owners and GMs and team presidents feel pressure to simulate being anti-racist for long enough, and they are heavily punished every time they let the mask slip, eventually up-and-coming new owners and GMs and team presidents won't be able to tell that it's theater, so they'll actually believe it and act accordingly!  This is literally how overt racism was made unacceptable in our society, and why teams need to be punished when they get too comfortable treating the Rooney Rule like a joke.

I disagree with this premise entirely. There is nothing racist doing an interview for show when the rules say that you have to do the interview. And if you're following the rules as written there should be nothing to be scared of.

If Ross decided the day the he fired Flores that he was going to 100% hire Harbaugh to replace him. Why should he have to interview anyone else? If the Rooney Rule is supposedly anti-racist. Then following the Rooney Rule as it's spelled out isn't racist. It's just a stupid rule plain and simple.

2) 12.4% of Americans may be black, but 57% of NFL players are.  Consequently, one would expect that former NFL players would be some of the top candidates for NFL assistant coaches (which should eventually result in them being likely candidates for coordinators and later, head coaches), but for some reason, this does not seem to be the case in the NFL.

Now, you might be inclined to question the premise of whether former players should be top candidates for assistant coaching jobs in the first place... and that's a fair point!  So in response, I would simply ask: what percentage of NHL coaches and MLB managers/coaches are former NHL/MLB players?  (This is a genuine question.)  Because if former players are heavily recruited as coaches in NHL and MLB, but not in the NFL... we should probably ask why that is.

So for this theory of yours to be congruent, you're saying that we NEED to hire more white players. I mean if black people are under represented as coaches and we need to intervene to hire more black coaches. Then white people are under represented as players, so we need to intervene and hire more white players. Also, doing and teaching are two totally separate things. As a guitar player, I know this first hand.

[Spider-Dan]

I disagree with this premise entirely. There is nothing racist doing an interview for show when the rules say that you have to do the interview. And if you're following the rules as written there should be nothing to be scared of.

If the Bills face any punishment in this case, it will be specifically for their refusal to take the rule seriously.  Even if the owner/GM/whoever had made up their mind before starting the search, the fact that you're going around telling other people (<- this part is important!) "Yeah, we already made up our mind before the interview, we're just doing the interview because we have to" means you aren't taking the rule seriously.

You can think of it like rules that prohibit nepotism.  Yes, we all realize in that in the real world, employers will hire their friends and family.  But if you're dumb enough to actually say your reasoning out loud?  Well, then you deserve to be punished for your stupidity.  You have to at least PRETEND to follow the rules.

So for this theory of yours to be congruent, you're saying that we NEED to hire more white players.

This would only be true if you believe that the existing system for developing and promoting players systemically discriminates against white athletes.  If that's your argument, make your case.

My argument is that players are underrepresented in NFL head coaching positions.  Why?

In MLB, 24 of the 30 managers have MLB playing experience.
In the NHL, 21 of the 32 head coaches have NHL playing experience.
In the NBA, 14 of the 30 head coaches have NBA playing experience.
In the NFL, 4 of the 32 head coaches have NFL playing experience.  (5 head coach slots are currently vacant, but of the coaches who last held them, only one - Sean Payton - played in the NFL, and that was as a replacement player during the 1987 strike.)

So why are managerial/head coaching positions given to ex-players in baseball and hockey so much more frequently?  Why are players in those (majority white) sports more trusted to lead teams after their playing careers are over?

[ArtieChokePhin]

So for this theory of yours to be congruent, you're saying that we NEED to hire more white players. I mean if black people are under represented as coaches and we need to intervene to hire more black coaches. Then white people are under represented as players, so we need to intervene and hire more white players.

I'd love to see that happen in the NBA.   Let's make every team be forced to have at least one white player in the game at all times.   Then evaluate the product on the court.

[Dave Gray]

If Ross decided the day the he fired Flores that he was going to 100% hire Harbaugh to replace him. Why should he have to interview anyone else? If the Rooney Rule is supposedly anti-racist. Then following the Rooney Rule as it's spelled out isn't racist. It's just a stupid rule plain and simple.

He doesn't.  You can have a guy you want and hire him without interviewing others.  You just have to request an exemption, which will be granted.  I forget who it was but someone did that in recent years.  The Rooney Rule (no pun intended) isn't quite that black and white.  If you are trying to secure a high profile coach, they don't want you having to put a few black guys in there to appease a system.  They just want it to be on the up and up and transparent.

[pondwater]

If the Bills face any punishment in this case, it will be specifically for their refusal to take the rule seriously.  Even if the owner/GM/whoever had made up their mind before starting the search, the fact that you're going around telling other people (<- this part is important!) "Yeah, we already made up our mind before the interview, we're just doing the interview because we have to" means you aren't taking the rule seriously.

You can think of it like rules that prohibit nepotism.  Yes, we all realize in that in the real world, employers will hire their friends and family.  But if you're dumb enough to actually say your reasoning out loud?  Well, then you deserve to be punished for your stupidity.  You have to at least PRETEND to follow the rules.

As far as I can tell, they didn't pretend to follow the rule, they actually followed the rule.  What else does the rule require them to do as written? The rule says that you have to interview a minority. Did they interview a minority? Yes or no?

I will add, I haven't read the rule itself. And if they somehow broke the rule as written, then fine. Take action against the Giants for breaking the rule. However, I don't see where this has anything to do with racism or the Dolphins. All of that is just hypocritical bullshit.

This would only be true if you believe that the existing system for developing and promoting players systemically discriminates against white athletes.  If that's your argument, make your case.

My case is that the system is fine the way it is. Playing and coaching are not remotely the same. Teams hire people with experience for the job they are applying for. Just because I eat steak at fancy restaurants doesn't mean that a fancy restaurant is going to hire me as a cook. Experience with fancy restaurants and eating steaks doesn't equate to cooking.

My argument is that players are underrepresented in NFL head coaching positions.  Why?

No, your argument is that black coaches are under represented in NFL head coaching positions. So I'm not sure how "players are underrepresented in NFL" has anything to do with Flores and racism. I've never really thought about "players being underrepresented" and don't really care. However, as noted earlier, there is a huge difference between doing something and teaching something. However, I'll ponder your question of "why" and let you know if I come up with anything.

Also, as far as I'm aware, it is not illegal if teams wanted to specifically "exclude" ex NFL players from coaching positions. It's not a protected class - race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability and genetic information.

In MLB, 24 of the 30 managers have MLB playing experience.
In the NHL, 21 of the 32 head coaches have NHL playing experience.
In the NBA, 14 of the 30 head coaches have NBA playing experience.
In the NFL, 4 of the 32 head coaches have NFL playing experience.  (5 head coach slots are currently vacant, but of the coaches who last held them, only one - Sean Payton - played in the NFL, and that was as a replacement player during the 1987 strike.)

So why are managerial/head coaching positions given to ex-players in baseball and hockey so much more frequently?  Why are players in those (majority white) sports more trusted to lead teams after their playing careers are over?

Again, I'm not sure how that has anything to do with Flores and racism. Are you saying that black people should be overrepresented as players and coaches? Would you agree that black people are already overrepresented in players?

Also, while you're at it please explain to me why and how 12.4% of the US population makes up 70% of the NFL players?

[CF DolFan]

Interesting note that PFT brought up today. typical language in coaches contracts say this

Here’s the relevant language, directly from another head coach’s contract: “[Coach] agrees that . . . all matters in dispute between [Coach] and Club, including without limitation any dispute arising from the terms of this Agreement, shall be referred to the NFL Commissioner or a Commissioner-appointed representative for the NFL for binding arbitration, and the decision shall be accepted as final, conclusive and unappealable.”

This means this most likely will not go to trial, not be made public and not allow for the open discovery I'm sure his lawyers would want. THe NFL has stacked the deck in favor of the owners for situations just like this.  

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Interesting note that PFT brought up today. typical language in coaches contracts say this

Here’s the relevant language, directly from another head coach’s contract: “[Coach] agrees that . . . all matters in dispute between [Coach] and Club, including without limitation any dispute arising from the terms of this Agreement, shall be referred to the NFL Commissioner or a Commissioner-appointed representative for the NFL for binding arbitration, and the decision shall be accepted as final, conclusive and unappealable.”

This means this most likely will not go to trial, not be made public and not allow for the open discovery I'm sure his lawyers would want. THe NFL has stacked the deck in favor of the owners for situations just like this.  

That would not apply to the Rooney violations as by default that was not under contract.  As for the allegation of bribery to throw a game, courts rarely will uphold an aberration clause if the allegation include not just breach of contract but also criminal conduct.

[Spider-Dan]

As far as I can tell, they didn't pretend to follow the rule, they actually followed the rule.  What else does the rule require them to do as written? The rule says that you have to interview a minority. Did they interview a minority? Yes or no?

I imagine the NFL will determine whether the Giants followed the rule.  As you describe it, John Mara publicly saying, "I'm going to hire Brian Daboll as my next coach, but I have to hold these Rooney Rule interviews first with coaches I don't want, so let me get that out of the way" would still qualify as following the rule as written.  I don't think that's how rules work.

My case is that the system is fine the way it is. Playing and coaching are not remotely the same. Teams hire people with experience for the job they are applying for. Just because I eat steak at fancy restaurants doesn't mean that a fancy restaurant is going to hire me as a cook. Experience with fancy restaurants and eating steaks doesn't equate to cooking.

I would have no problem with the argument that ex-players have no particularly unique insight when it comes to coaching... except that in the NHL, the majority of coaches are ex-players, and in MLB, nearly all the managers are ex-players.  So what's your explanation for why are baseball and hockey players are apparently so much more qualified to lead teams?

No, your argument is that black coaches are under represented in NFL head coaching positions.

No, my argument is that 1) ex-players are underrepresented in NFL coaching ranks, likely because 2) most NFL players are black.

Also, as far as I'm aware, it is not illegal if teams wanted to specifically "exclude" ex NFL players from coaching positions. It's not a protected class - race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability and genetic information.

There's also no law that says teams must interview minority candidates for head coaching positions, nor is there a law requiring the NFL to print anti-racism messages on the field, or wear pink in October.  These are actions that the NFL voluntarily takes to improve its image as a socially responsible company.  I don't think Flores' allegations of racial bias are about breaking the law as much as they are about violating the NFL's own rules of conduct.

Again, I'm not sure how that has anything to do with Flores and racism. Are you saying that black people should be overrepresented as players and coaches? Would you agree that black people are already overrepresented in players?

Also, while you're at it please explain to me why and how 12.4% of the US population makes up 70% of the NFL players?

Probably for the same reason that 12.4% of the US population is ~4% of NHL players and ~8% of MLB players.  But you don't hear me calling for more black players in the NHL, because the system of player development in pro sports - from AAU to college, minor leagues, and the pros - is extensive enough to show merit-based advancement.  Coaches don't go through anywhere near the same vetting process.   It's the difference between Chris Long, Andrew Luck, or Christian McCaffery getting to the NFL after being elite players in high school and college, and Jim Mora Jr., Stephen Belichick, or Kyle Shanahan getting to the NFL a year after graduating from college just because their daddies were coaches.

Now, it is entirely possible that if the NFL had ex-players in the coaching ranks at a rate similar to MLB, that most of those coaches would still be white; after all, none of the current NFL coaches who are ex-players are black.  But I think if the NFL had more ex-players as coaches, those players would be more likely to recognize which of their former teammates would be a good fit for coaching... in a more unbiased manner than the current system of coaches recruited from the friends and family of existing coaches does.

[Fau Teixeira]

That would not apply to the Rooney violations as by default that was not under contract.  As for the allegation of bribery to throw a game, courts rarely will uphold an aberration clause if the allegation include not just breach of contract but also criminal conduct.

Out of curiosity, what law was being broken when the owner of a team offers to compensate one of his employees for specific performance that's beneficial to the team long term?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Out of curiosity, what law was being broken when the owner of a team offers to compensate one of his employees for specific performance that's beneficial to the team long term?

 18 U.S.C. § 224

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Re why AA are over represented in NFL and NBA (also boxing)and under represented in NHL (also PGA, tennis, and pro skiiing):   Socioeconomic.

Innercity aka poor aka minority high schools have basketball courts, they don’t have golf teams.  There dads played basketball (son followed in father’s footsteps) in white suburban towns dad took son golfing.     The underrepresentation of minorities in NHL isn’t an NHL problem as much as a still persistent aspect of the systemic racism caused by decades of redlining. 

NHL’s lack of diversity isn’t really a problem of the pro-sports engaging in segregation the way baseball did before Jackie Robinson or  Kenny Washington with the NFL it is more a matter of the high cost of playing youth hockey.