Cops cleared in groom shooting case

[Guru-In-Vegas]

But even "accidents" are punishable.  Especially if it was due to neglect or if laws were broken.  Somebody who kills someone else in an accident that was just that, an accident, will probably be pardoned before a putz who runs a red light while talking on a cell phone and eating chips.

[SCFinFan]

Brian's right. It would be hard for me to not say that there was some murderous intent here. I also wonder whether or not the bullets were all fired at once, or if there were breaks in the shooting. I haven't seen that factoid anywhere. If there was a break, as in, the cops stopped shooting, and then started again, that would to my mind, be evidence of murderous intent depending on the circumstances.

[Brian Fein]

To clarify, the difference is that cops are typically authorized to commit murder should they see fit.  This is where the problem lies. 

Its pretty clear that the cops shot to kill as was their intent.  However, the part we DON'T know is whether or not the cops' shooting was justified.  We'll never know that.  Apparently, the court decided that it was.

[run_to_win]

I'd love for some lawyer to convince me that cops fired 50 bullets at a guy and intended to NOT kill them.  What were they, warning shots?

Sounds like conditioning to me.

Whether based on the reputation of the establishment, or the age, race and/or actions of the victims, the cops believed the patrons were going to be aggressive. 

Fifty shots is excessive.  The officer who emptied two clips was either an evil cop or scared beyond all ability to reason. 

Unlike our resident officer  , most cops use restraint and react in-kind.  A simple "yes sir" or "no sir" can diffuse a misunderstanding.  Being drunk, beligerent and hostile at a seedy location is asking for trouble. 

[bsfins]

I'm not sure I want to get in this.....

Let's point out a few things....Only 6 people know what happened there that night....

For starters,it was 3 police officers,3 suspects.....2 of which still fled the scene after being told to halt....Also,You don't yell...."Yo, go get my gun", and taken not to be a threat,or dangerous situation... The police have a right to protect themselves,when they feel like their lives or other lives are in danger....

It's interesting,IMO...That they were minding their own business,at a strip club @2am....

modified to add...In the article,Mentions that the judges states the Defense were more Crediable...Hmmm 3 guy's at a bachelor party at a strip club,No mention of Alcohol? Most people don't recall things so well after they've been drinking...things become hazy....They tend to Lip off,Become more Flippant....

[bsmooth]

I'm not sure I want to get in this.....

Let's point out a few things....Only 6 people know what happened there that night....

For starters,it was 3 police officers,3 suspects.....2 of which still fled the scene after being told to halt....Also,You don't yell...."Yo, go get my gun", and taken not to be a threat,or dangerous situation... The police have a right to protect themselves,when they feel like their lives or other lives are in danger....

It's interesting,IMO...That they were minding their own business,at a strip club @2am....

modified to add...In the article,Mentions that the judges states the Defense were more Crediable...Hmmm 3 guy's at a bachelor party at a strip club,No mention of Alcohol? Most people don't recall things so well after they've been drinking...things become hazy....They tend to Lip off,Become more Flippant....

Jesus if you are going to qutoe the article at least get it right.
The supposed remark that happened inside the club as they were leaving was only heard by one cop who got nervous, and when the guy put his hand inside his pocket he assumed he had a gun.
All three men were shot inside or just outside the vehicle, they did not run from the cops.
This was incredibley shitty police work and these cops are lying to save their asses. It is telling that they chose to have a judge decide instead of a jury. The fact that the judge said the cops had more credibility than the victims, because they were cops is a travesty.
Also it is not the first time this department has riddled an unarmed man. They have a wild west mentality because they have beaten the rap in the past.

[bsfins]

Jesus if you are going to qutoe the article at least get it right.
The supposed remark that happened inside the club as they were leaving was only heard by one cop who got nervous, and when the guy put his hand inside his pocket he assumed he had a gun.
All three men were shot inside or just outside the vehicle, they did not run from the cops.
This was incredibley shitty police work and these cops are lying to save their asses. It is telling that they chose to have a judge decide instead of a jury. The fact that the judge said the cops had more credibility than the victims, because they were cops is a travesty.
Also it is not the first time this department has riddled an unarmed man. They have a wild west mentality because they have beaten the rap in the past.

I read from this article....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080425/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting

jesus man,Why don't you read the article First, before you attack someone...

Isnora claimed that after he warned the men to halt, Bell pulled away in his car, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van that converged on the scene. The detective also said Guzman made a sudden move as if he were reaching for a gun.

Amazing you can form an opinion of the judges opinion,when he was actually listening to the testimony...and you heard zero testimony.....The Departments Past descretions can't be taken into account in this case.....

[Sunstroke]

The difference between murder and accident is intent. 

I'd love for some lawyer to convince me that cops fired 50 bullets at a guy and intended to NOT kill them.  What were they, warning shots?

They were repeatedly trying to wing them...every bullet was carefully aimed at an extremity.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

That said, mistakes happen.  I make them.  So do you.  I have made terrible decisions in my job, and have paid the appropriate consequences.  I also learn from those mistakes and lacks of judgment and become better at what I do because of it.  Cops are doing a job.  The stakes are just way higher than a normal job.  These are probably shitty cops, and they definitely screwed up, but I don't know whether they are criminals or not.

Not to knock you, Dave but what happens when you do a bad job in your line of work (not saying that you do)?  You lose clients.  That's your consequence. 

These cops used excessive force, and as a result, an innocent man died.  A girl lost her fiance, two children lost their dad, and two parents lost their son.  Those cops need to be held accountable for what they did, jail or not. 

I can see a civil lawsuit coming down the pike.....similar to the OJ situation.

[bsmooth]

I read from this article....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080425/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting

jesus man,Why don't you read the article First, before you attack someone...

Isnora claimed that after he warned the men to halt, Bell pulled away in his car, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van that converged on the scene. The detective also said Guzman made a sudden move as if he were reaching for a gun.

Amazing you can form an opinion of the judges opinion,when he was actually listening to the testimony...and you heard zero testimony.....The Departments Past descretions can't be taken into account in this case.....

The guy took off after the shooting started. What would you do if shooting started. You are assuming the cops did everything exactley as they said they did and made no mistakes. Plus they were all plainclothes. When you see someone walk up with a weapon, in a bad part of town you might not automatically assume it is an undercover cop. So the supposed ramming of an unmarked van means nothing.
They should have gotten marked units for backup, they did not, they fucked up and should lose their badges as a minimum.
It is funny you brought up past discretions but the judge used them against the victims, but not the departments history of gunning down unarmed civilians with massive overkill.
I did read it, and the only person who supposedly heard this guy YELL " yo get my gun" in a stripclub, with music playing, was one cop who started the whole ball rolling, and had everything to lose.
NYPD has a serious cowboy mentality running through its ranks that will now continue to get unarmed civilians murdered.

[run_to_win]

...an innocent man died. 

Perhaps he was innocent before the encounter ... but at once he committed vehicular assault he was no longer innocent and was a clear threat to the officers:

... after warning the men to halt, Bell pulled away, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van that converged on the scene...

[bsfins]

Again Bsmooth...It's called a court room...Only certain things can be submitted...and you're not talking facts,you're talking assumptions......

[SCFinFan]

A question I have about a case like this:

Should the police be held to an 'everyday person' kind of standard? Ought they be able to say, "So and So made a movement like he was going for a gun, and therefore we shot." Or should they be held to a higher standard?

It would be a tremendous burden on police, I think, to tell them they have to be absolutely sure about someone's intentions and actions before they can act to defend themselves. On the other hand, they have a lot of training and conditioning they go through to be able to react properly to situations like this.

[run_to_win]

The only problem is if cops regularly hesitate they're eventually going home in a box. 

I don't like "innocent" people getting shot ... but I do like the "cooperate or risk being shot" message that incidents like this send.  People should have more respect for the authorities.  In the absence of respect, fear works too.

[PhinsHelmetOnPenis]

In the absence of respect, fear works too.

Spoken like a true Replublican!