Does anyone miss the NBA?

[mecadonzilla]

Spidey, your fail arguments are fail.  You have absolutely no concept of what you're saying.  Accept that you got pwned and move on.  Your poorly considered strawman arguments only serve to embarrass your debate's weakness.

[Dave Gray]

they had a bunch of average guys around Larry Bird, who he made look better than they were

Parish and McHale were in no way average players.

[mecadonzilla]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, this argument again? They're old, tired and recycled words... now get over it. This isn't the first time its happened.

Bless you, sir.

Except that Garnett and Allen did not conspire together with Pearce to force trades to Boston.  But whatever.  Clearly, it wasn't nearly has heinous as Quitness' Cleveland situation.

Kobe was nothing when he and Shaq were united, and while clearly San Antonio clearly tanked to get the number one pick-it is not germane to this conversation.

[Spider-Dan]

Except that Garnett and Allen did not conspire together with Pearce to force trades to Boston.

So now you're claiming that three free agents who chose to sign with Miami is somehow worse than Allen and Garnett essentially forcing their teams to trade them?

Perhaps you should stick to bragging about the awesomeness of your arguments instead of, you know, actually trying to support them.

[mecadonzilla]

So now you're claiming that three free agents who chose to sign with Miami is somehow worse than Allen and Garnett essentially forcing their teams to trade them?

Perhaps you should stick to bragging about the awesomeness of your arguments instead of, you know, actually trying to support them.

Except, that Allen and Garrett didn't force their teams to trade them to a particular team.  They wanted out because they were in no win situations.

I more than adequately supported my arguments.  You, however, did not.  I think you need to research the topic at hand further.  Your homework:  do it before you spout off.  Bring me a new list of candidates who equal the Quitness himself in 2nd banana land.  Everyone you listed was not a star of his supposed caliber.  Do you even understand what you're arguing for?

[Spider-Dan]

Except, that Allen and Garrett didn't force their teams to trade them to a particular team.  They wanted out because they were in no win situations.

And yet the same excuse does not work for LBJ.

Let me see if I can get this straight:

A player who has won the NBA MVP award and made multiple All-NBA First Teams decides that he is tired of the futility and ineptness from the franchise that drafted him straight out of high school.  He decides that he wants to go play with two other peers (all of whom are less than three years apart in age), and assume a lesser role on another man's team for a chance to win a title.

If this man's name is Kevin Garnett, and he is under contract to the Timberwolves (a contract HE agreed to), this is an acceptable move.
If this man's name is LeBron James, and he is a free agent, able to sign anywhere he so chooses... well, NOW we have a problem.

If you want to bash LBJ, at least have the integrity to bash Garnett and Allen at the same time.  All four of them (Allen, Garnett, Bosh, and James) are equally guilty of the crime you accuse James of:  accepting that you cannot lead your team to a title and going to another man's team instead.

[mecadonzilla]

Ummm...superstars make it work.  They are the straw that stirs the basketball drink.  Quitness is not that guy and has already proven so.

Name me one person who is supposedly of Quitness' caliber that did this?  So far, you've only come up with some kind of weird equivocation to the Celtics.  (and the players involved did not force their teams to trade them to Boston...so there goes that point, but I'll give it to you again....Garnett's tenure with the T-wolves was filled with overall team mediocrity.  They only made the conference title once and were most often on the cusp of the playoff skirt most years.  Both he and the team wanted a change.

Your strawmen do not stand.

Did Magic force a trade to another team to defer to another?  Did Bird?  Did Jordan?  Did Shaq?  Did Wilt?  Your fail argument is still fail.   You've never even tried to argue the topic at hand.  You'd rather debate another point which has already been proven fallible to begin with.  Go back to school.

I think you're only arguing again for the sole point of arguing.  Your point has already been roundly refuted and you still come back for more.

[mecadonzilla]

Ummm...superstars make it work.  They are the straw that stirs the basketball drink.  Quitness is not that guy and has already proven so.

Name me one person who is supposedly of Quitness' caliber that did this?  So far, you've only come up with some kind of weird equivocation to the Celtics.  (and the players involved did not force their teams to trade them to Boston...so there goes that point, but I'll give it to you again....Garnett's tenure with the T-wolves was filled with overall team mediocrity.  They only made the conference title once and were most often on the cusp of the playoff skirt most years.  Both he and the team wanted a change.  Quitness' team was constantly in the mix and actually performed much better than the T-wolves did in the playoffs consistently.  The Cavs did everything they could to keep him and Princess James chose otherwise.  Fair enough...his decision.  And that decision only shows his will to defer to another.

Your strawmen do not stand.

Did Magic force a trade to another team to defer to another?  Did Bird?  Did Jordan?  Did Shaq?  Did Wilt?  Your fail argument is still fail.   You've never even tried to argue the topic at hand.  You'd rather debate another point which has already been proven fallible to begin with.  Go back to school.

I think you're only arguing again for the sole point of arguing.  Your point has already been roundly refuted and you still come back for more.

[Dave Gray]

Free Agents are free agents.  You can sign with whichever team you'd like.  What's the problem?

[Spider-Dan]

Name me one person who is supposedly of Quitness' caliber that did this?

Kevin Garnett?  I don't know how many times I have to say it.

Or are you falling back on the position that LBJ is simultaneously a quitting loser and a megastar that's far out of Garnett's league?

So far, you've only come up with some kind of weird equivocation to the Celtics.  (and the players involved did not force their teams to trade them to Boston...so there goes that point).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2387812

Garnett voices complaints as Timberwolves struggle

"I don't want to go through this any more," Garnett said after the Wolves squeaked out a win over the lowly New York Knicks on Sunday. "I think I'm more deserving of a better team and I think the city's more deserving of a better team, coming in here having something that's going to be competitive and having us getting back to the Western Conference finals. But I do know you just can't blink and it's going to happen; you have to actually spend the time and effort. So, we'll see."

[...]

"I've always said I'll be in Minnesota as long as they want me here," he said after the game. "I don't think I can take another one of these rebuilding stages. I've always said that I think I'm worth not only being listened to but I think I'm definitely in a position where I [should] have a team and ... a chance to win a ring. So I think, at the end of the day, they should at least give me that. If it's anything different from that, then it's a discussion we have to talk about."

He said he's not interested in rebuilding and that if he's not in a position where he has "a chance to win a ring," that would need further discussion.

LBJ was a free agent.  He didn't sign a contract and then tell Cleveland's front office what they needed to do to keep him happy.

Did Magic force a trade to another team to defer to another?  Did Bird?  Did Jordan?  Did Shaq?  Did Wilt?

Magic had a future Hall of Famer on his team from the start and had a front office that immediately acquired more future HOFers.
Same goes for Bird.
Jordan had a competent front office that got him the supporting cast he needed.
Shaq forced a trade from L.A. to Wade's Heat to get away from up-and-coming Kobe.
Wilt Chamberlain?  The man who was traded to a team that had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West?  Please.

If your argument is that LBJ is weak for teaming up with his rivals, I agree.  But in today's league, damn near ALL the top players are trying to do that!  Derrick Rose, last season's MVP, wanted the Miami Big Three to land in Chicago.  Carmelo and Amare did it.  Garnett, Allen, and Pierce did it.  Paul and Howard will be doing it.  So why all the hate for LBJ when you are happy to give Boston's players a pass?

[EKnight]

Not ALL the top players are trying to do it. Three teams have done it- Knicks, Heat, Celtics. I've already said that I dispise ALL three of them for doing it. I found it so egregious that I stopped watching basketball altogether. It's the Yankees priciple all over- why do you think so many people hate the Yankees? Why do so many people cheer when they invest tons of money and make outrageous trades to build an all-star team and fail? Buying a team is pointless. The reason so many people hate what the Heat did even more is because at least when Boston did it, they didn't pop off at the mouth giving themselves nicknames (What the f is a Heatle, anyway? Obnoxious!) before they even step on the court.

Let me repeat this- I personally find it reprehensible that ANY team would do this, and that ANY player would take the easy way out- any combination of the "Big Three" in any team doesn't look like integrity, hard work, and greatness. It looks like "I don't have the talent or the work ethic to make my team better; it's difficult and I'm spoiled and want to win now! So rather than learn how to make my team better, I would rather just quit on them and get together with other guys of the same mentality to bully the league." THAT is why when the "Dream Team" Heat started 9-8, fans cheered. It's why when they lost 24 games after half the media was talking about them breaking the 72-10 Bulls record, people cheered. Hard work beats talent. People respect that. They don't respect colusion, bullying, or quitters. I don't think it's any coincidence that LBJ has been labeled a quitter for the way he left Celeveland, and his disappearance in the fourth quarter of games. If you are a quitter your whole career, and you try to remedy that by looking to others for help rather than fixing YOUR own problems, people are going to bitch about it. -EK

[mecadonzilla]

I don't know how many times I have to tell you why KG's situation is different from Quitness.  The only similarity between the two was that they were both traded.  KG played for a near perennial cellar dweller and got tired of it as his career was drawing to a close.  He put in his time in Minnesota and no one faults him for leaving a loser franchise with a front office even more clueless office than the Lolphins.  BronBron, on the other hand, forced his way out of a situation where he was the unquestioned leader of a highly competitive perennial playoff team to play somewhere where he wasn't the main focus.  The only person who might be close is Carmello, but who knows what the deal is with his crazy ass. 

EK's right.  Quitness tried to find a shortcut to a championship and when forced to put up or shut up, he completely deferred to other, lesser players in crunch time in the Finals.  When the going got tough, he checked out, which is why he left Cleveland in the first place.  He didn't want to work for it.  He wanted another to do it for him.  It appears it's a pattern for him.  The good news for him is that he's still young and his future is not yet written in stone.

BTW, Wilt was the unquestioned alpha dog of the Laker team he was traded to.  Wilt was always the alpha dog in any situation he was in and the HOF laden team he was traded to knew that.  And Shaq left because he couldn't get along with an egomaniacal Kobe.  He wanted the Lakers to choose between him and his rapist teammate, and Jerry Buss chose to go with a much younger Kobe.  Neither situation was close to what Quitness chose. 

Players force trades all the time.  No one is arguing that.  It's been happening for years.  But no one of Quitness' self proclaimed magnitude ever took the easy way out like that.  It's that cowardice that showed in the Finals. 

[Phishfan]

I don't know how many times I have to tell you why KG's situation is different from Quitness.  The only similarity between the two was that they were both traded. 

I assume you are comparing James (is he Quitness) & Garnett? James wasn't traded.

[Spider-Dan]

Quitness tried to find a shortcut to a championship and when forced to put up or shut up, he completely deferred to other, lesser players in crunch time in the Finals.  When the going got tough, he checked out, which is why he left Cleveland in the first place.  He didn't want to work for it.  He wanted another to do it for him.  It appears it's a pattern for him.

This is the criticism of LBJ I find most absurd.

You bash him for giving up on being The Man on his own team and going to Wade's team.  Fine.  But then they get to the Finals and you bash LBJ for not taking over the game and winning... isn't that Dwyane Wade's job?  Isn't that the entire reason LBJ went to Miami, and the reason why people bashed him for going there in the first place?  Why are you blaming him instead of Wade?

LBJ has apparently accepted that he's not going to be the next Jordan, and would prefer to be the next Magic.  So why are you criticizing him for not taking over a game like Jordan would?

[EKnight]

Possibly because Magic STILL took over games. He did it by involving his team mates more and playing defense. Magic took over by getting triple doubles; LBJ gets those too, but one of his "triple" stats is often turnovers. Oh- and then there's the 42 point game Magic had in the finals his rookie year starting at center instead of point guard. There's a difference between differing to a better player and not showing up at all. Don't compare LBJ to Magic; he couldn't carry Johnson's jock. Or Bird's. Never mind MJ's. Keep in mind everything LBJ does- every single thing- was already done by the three guys I just mentioned in the eighties, and they did it against better competition without resorting to teaming up together. The WORST of those three was Bird, who has 3 rings, 3 straight MVP's, and is probably one of the best two small forwards of all time and a top ten all time player. People can't even agree on whether LBJ is the best player in the league (see Bryant, K.) or even on his team (see Wade, D.). Making any comparison to Magic or Michael is ridiculousness. -EK