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I'm not Catholic. Never have been and don't really understand how it all works. Anyway, what exactly does it mean to be excommunicated? What are the ramifications?

I've been keeping up with a story out of Brazil about a 9 year old girl that was pregnant with twins. She was raped by her step father. She got an abortion and now the church is excommunicaiting all that were involved.

So, what exactly does that entail?

The story is here if you're interested:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm (Not here to argue the story or anything. Just want to understand excommunication.)

Here's a pretty good definition:

Excommunication is a religious censure used to deprive or suspend membership in a religious community. The word literally means putting [someone] out of communion. In some religions, excommunication includes spiritual condemnation of the member or group. Censures and sanctions sometimes follow excommunication; these include banishment, shunning, and shaming, depending on the religion, the offense that caused excommunication, or the rules or norms of the religious community.

Religious fanatics...    (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/lordthundergod/074.gif)

SHE'S 9!!!!!!!!!!11!1!!!  AND RAPED!!!!!

So, basically they can't go to church or be part of the religious community anymore?  Ok.

Here is the problem:  In the Catholic world you can't use birth  control and be Catholic.  You can't get an abortion, under any circumstances, and be a Catholic.  There are certain things that strict - by the book - Catholic's don't condone under any circumstances. 

Crazy?  Maybe.  But that's how they roll.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't be pregnant out of wedlock and be Catholic, as well?

It is not against the Catholic church to use birth control anymore.

And correct me if I am wrong....if you are excommunicated, that means you cannot be in touch with God as the catholic church believes that you can only have a connection with God through the church....as such, without such connection to God, you are damned to purgatory.

This is what I'm wondering too. Otherwise, it doesn't sound like excommunication is that big of deal.

Dammit, i just wrote a huge reply to this, but it disappeared when i refreshed the page. I'll get back to this later.

For now, I guess, settle on this: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Uh, yes it is. That teaching has never changed. I don't mind if you're wrong about the issue, but don't misrepresent.

This is basically correct.

But she had an abortion. You are missing the point if you look at the circumstances. If a man is suffering incredible poverty, but takes a knife and mercilessly stabs a man to death and takes his money, he still has committed murder, despite the circumstances.

You're not automatically damned, you're just severed from the body of Christians here on earth. It's a medicinal punishment, and it doesn't obviate the effects of baptism, which is what allows one to be saved.

Not true, see above.

Depends on what you mean by can. Can it scientifically happen? Yes, obviously, of course. Is it illicit, sinful, damaging to the family structure, wounding to one's progeny, and does it add to the difficulty of one's life on earth? Yes.

SC,

Please stop making back to back to back posts.  I was guilty of doing that once, but I found out the hard way that it clutters up the thread.  If you want to address quotes individually, it can be done in one post. 

Sorry, I'm trying to study for my MPRE and post here at the same time. I'm a bit scattered.

Well then I guess I am going to hell, so I'll have a nice big steak tonight, too.
Modifed to add:  ;D

Oh my God. Are you a Jewish mother? No? Then quit trying to sling guilt at me like one.

Case in point: "judge not, let ye be judged" means do not speculate on an individual's ultimate destination, even should they commit the most abominable crime. I know the following statement will piss off RTW, but, frankly, no one knows whether even Hitler himself is in hell. God is just that merciful.

(Therefore, in accord with the above, I never speculated on the morality of what you did, or even mentioned heaven and hell...)

But beyond ultimate destination, the Catholic (and any rational person) is not stopped from passing judgment on incorrect facts. Let me ask you, Stl, if I said the Yankees had won every World Series since 1918 (I miss saying that date), and you replied by contradicting me, and I responded to your reply by saying "Oh, well, I guess I'm going to hell," would you take me seriously? I hope not. And I hope no one else would, either. 

Errors exist to be corrected. And it's the burden of the corrected person to either swallow his pride and admit his error, or explain his statement in such a way as makes sense.

So, does the man that raped the 9 year old automatically get excommunicated?

I am not trying to sling guilt at you.  Maybe you should learn to take a joke. 
I take birth control pills.  If the church belives that is wrong, then I guess I am condemned for it, but I don't really care.

Let me look.

No. Where secular punishments exist, excommunication does not. Rape remains a mortal sin, has the effect of completely wiping out the relationship between human and God, and requires a deep and lasting penance to fully remove.

What if the people that performed the abortion are not Catholics? What then?

Then they can't be excommunicated. That'd be like the feds trying a non-US citizen for an American federal crime not committed on US soil (or in an embassy, or in a war zone, etc). Excommunication is a punishment administered by the church, to her flock, and to no one else.

It's probably for the best.

Not pregnant + Not having to go to church anymore = Winner!

They're not excommunicating her. Something about her being to young or something.

^^

Right, people under a certain age cannot be excomm'd. Furthermore, at that age, she couldn't have formed the intent to do the act which would've gotten excommunication as a punishment.

Oh and by the way:


Misreading + being a smartass dick about a sensitive situation like this = FAIL.

I like being called a dick on my own message board.  Bravo.  Remember that PM I wrote about being nice to each other?  Is that out the window already?

This thread has been relaxing and fun to read!  Thanks everyone!  :)

Eye for an eye, brother. I'll always answer you on the level at which you make a comment. If you had put forward something reasonable, then sure, I wouldn't have said anything. But if you're gonna be irreverent, expect to have it flung in your face.

Adam - why do you have to take that tone so brightly when someone doesn't agree with your faith?

You = faithful.

Dave = atheist.

This girl - being freed from the bonds of having to attend church and grow up under the Catholic eye, in the atheist view point, is a winning situation for the girl.

Why is it okay for you to saying something like "God is THAT merciful" - which goes along with YOUR faith but Dave can't express his?  It's basically the SAME comment.  You can...he can't?

Sorry bub, but if anyone is being a "dick" in this situation it's not Dave.

^^

C'mon now. Where do you draw the line between dickish thing to say and statement of faith? Is it really an "atheistic statement of faith" (as if that weren't a contradiction in terms) to say "not pregnant + going to church = winner?" Really? Is that not just merely a crass, disgusting comment in the face of the fact that twin preborn children are now dead, a family is torn up, and a man is going to jail?

Do you honestly expect me to bite my tongue at everything someone says in here? This thread already contained on insult towards people of faith who take seriously the fact that pre-born children have the right to life. What were we called? Oh, yes, that's right... religious fanatics. Is that a statement of faith which I should just respect, Maine? I doubt you would let similar statements pass on subjects you care deeply about.

The fact is that there is a complete difference between me making a theological statement, and Dave's crass expression, which not only showed a thorough misreading of the subject, but also a disregard for the forces at work here.

Oh geez,can't we have a conversation anymore?

My mom was thrown out of the Catholic church,for getting remarried,better to live in sin....Thrown out by none other than Bernard Law himself,after he stood up for my Mom in court against my Dad....(after they were both brought up on polygamy charges...)

Catholicism = Guilt,Guilt,Guilt!

Which reminds me, I need to to get a burger and eat it in front of my Mom just to hear her shrill in the horror.....

/highjack

I gotta say I agree with SC. 

I mean for the sake of discussion, fine, there is always room for disagreement.  There are ways to going about it though that don't make you come across as a douche-cock.  I first came on this board and had the video game forum mentality where it was all out war.  LoL...let's just say it didn't make me many friends here.

/end highjack

I grew up in a harcore catholic family.  Around age 19 or 20 I began questioning God and remember feeling scared something bad was going to happen to me.  I don't dare tell my family I'm not a catholic anymore.  I'm sure being excommunicated has that big of an impact. 

I agree with Lil B, catholicism does= guilt, guilt, guilt.

Seriously, anyone who thinks a 9 year old girl should have carried twins that resulted from incestuous rape to full term just has a screw loose. I don't care what your religious affiliation is, common sense should tell you to find a new way to worship if that is the general thinking of any church. Not only does she have to deal with this betrayal of her trust, you expect her to have carried the consequences around fro nine months to relive it every day?

What about Catholicism makes some feel guilty?

There was also some discussion as to rather her 9 year old body could even carry the twins. Seriously. Think about how tiny a 9 year old girl is.

No one thinks she's culpable. She's 9.

So let's assume she's 18 instead of 9. Then what? In terms of a hierarchy of sin, murder is definitely worse than rape (possibly close, but murder wins). The Catholic church teaches that abortion for any reason, under any circumstances is murder. This isn't complicated and no one should be surprised that the Church is sanctioning the adults involved in this mess. You might disagree with the Church's teaching, but so what? You don't have to believe it.

There are plenty of non-religious folks that think abortion is wrong. I'll concede the view is most popular amongst those who believe in a god, but religion doesn't have a monopoly on that opinion.

Sorry SC.  I have to agree with Maine here.  Dave was just saying what HE thought about the girl having an abortion and not having to go to church anymore.  Because God created us with the free will to choose, he is entitled to choose whether or not to believe in God.  As a Christian, while I don't agree with what he said, I didn't find it offensive either.  And you calling him a "smartass dick" was definitely NOT a Christian way of handling it. 

Everything.  Everything you do and say and think that is not in line with what the church says makes you a bad person.

I have faith in God, but not so much in the church.

I attended a Catholic church regularly for the first 18 years of my life and I attended Catholic schools from kindergarten through twelfth grade. Not once do I remember feeling guilty, probably because I never really believed any of it. If you feel guilty, then you must believe. If you believe, then why bad mouth the Church?

Maybe because she had a bad experience at a certain church.  I know plenty of Christians that don't go to church because they've been "wounded" by the church. 

I don't feel guilty.  I have my own personal set of beliefs.  I take birth control, I think abortion should be a choice, I eat whatever I want during Lent, I don't attend church regularly, I don't think there is anything wrong with being gay, and I try to be a decent human being all the time.

And no, Tommy, I have not had a bad experience with a church.  I just came to the point where I did not feel the need to be active in a church to follow God, if that makes sense.

Modified to add: Let's just say I cut out the middle man.

That's cool. I thought you were feeling guilty since you described the church as guilt inducing. No worries.


I'm not sure about all of the denominations, but the Catholic church is pretty clear about the requirement for attending mass and receiving the sacraments. If a person actually believes and still doesn't participate, then that person is an idiot. Now if you don't believe, that's a completely different story.

The Catholic Church isn't the only one causing guilt. You should see some of the fire & brimstone churches from my neck of the woods.

Not to mention the entire Jewish faith...

I wouldn't label my church "fire and brimstone".  Both me and my church have always been along the line of "love the sinner, hate the sin". 

I love me some Catholics. They have all the really great saints, my favorite being St. Francis of Assisi.

^ no offense  :o ,you sound like my Mom..She has Saint Christopher,Saint Anthony...She's old school Italian from the south side of Chicago Catholic...Lol!

Gosh, a girl just loves when she is compared to someone's MOM! Makes her feel oh so great! :)

I just think all the crazy saint stuff is kinda fun. I majored in art history for undergrad and we studies A LOT of saints. That's all.

I'm sorry, I still love ya!

You probably know more about the saints than I do....

Straight from the dictionary

fa·nat·ic 
Pronunciation: \fə-ˈna-tik\
Variant(s): or fa·nat·i·cal  \-ti-kəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple — more at feast
Date: 1550

You and other clearly follow this definition, especially with your frenzied defense/defensivness over your chosen faith.
Also the fanatic comment seemed to apply to the story, not all catholics.