Consecutively good QBs

[Dave Gray]

Bob Griese was a HOF QB.  Three years later the starting QB was Dan Marino another HOF QB.  And the intern guy wasn't a total bum either, Dolphins made the playoffs 2 out of those 3 years.

Those aren't consecutive.  Like you said, there were three seasons of someone else.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Those aren't consecutive.  Like you said, there were three seasons of someone else.

Yes, those are not consecutive.  But the original post also claimed it takes 10 years to recover.  Miami recovered quite nicely in only three. 

[Dave Gray]

I said it usually takes ten years to recover.  I think that Miami, while not consecutive seasons, did pretty well for themselves over that time.  However, that doesn't really go for what I'm getting at.

I'm thinking of situations where the next guy was in waiting.

You could argue that Bledsoe/Brady is one.  There's no doubt that Bledsoe was a good QB, but I don't know if he was a truly great one.  Without looking at his stats, he seems like he was kind of a journeyman, but never became that elite level player that everyone thought.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I'm thinking of situations where the next guy was in waiting.

You could argue that Bledsoe/Brady is one.  There's no doubt that Bledsoe was a good QB, but I don't know if he was a truly great one.  Without looking at his stats, he seems like he was kind of a journeyman, but never became that elite level player that everyone thought.

Bledsoe was not elite.  But he was a four time pro-bowler.
 
I could also argue that Brady/Cassel was a pretty solid combo with the second one in waiting.  Cassel is no Tom Brady, but I would think that had Brady's injury been career ending instead of season ending Matt would be the starting QB for NE and while NE would not be as strong with him as they are with Brady, the team would still be a playoff contender. 

I bet there are many others we never learn about because the back up leaves he league having never had a chance to show his stuff. 

[Pappy13]

Pappy, what you are claiming seems to contradict what every single Dolphin fan/Marino apologist has ever said to me.

Not really.  Let me take your statements one at a time...

The claim is often that the team played with absolutely sucked and Dan Marino carried the entire team and that had he had a supporting cast that was the least bit competent than Dan wouldn't just have a ring, he would have multiple rings.

The team did not suck in '84 and '85.  Dan had a pretty good defense in those years and the Dolphins made it to the SB in '84 and to the AFC Championship game in '85.  Unfortunately Dan went up again Montana and the SF 49's in '84 which in my opinion was one of the best teams of the decade.  A bit of bad luck that year that Dan had to face them.  In '85, the Dolphins played terrible in the AFC Championship game and lost to New England when they were clearly the better team.  Again, a bit of bad luck there.  The team didn't suck, just not good enough to win SB's even with Dan.  After '85 the defense fell off considerably and it was never that good again while Dan was there.

You seem to be claiming that supporting cast around Woodley was the greatest collection of players ever who carried him along and that the QB been at all decent they would have been SB winners. Well, Dave and Dan had basically the same supporting cast.

Not quite.  If you will remember '82 was a strike shortened year and offenses were behind the defenses.  Miami's D was ranked I believe #1 or #2 that year.  Miami was good enough to make it to the SB, but they were handled easily by the Redskins.  If you look at the score it seemed closer than it really was as one of the Dolphins TD's was on a kickoff return, but without that TD, Miami's offense was pretty much ineffective and that was largely due to Woodley not being able to get anything going through the air.  I believe they had 1 long TD as well, but that's about it.  The Redskins hammered Riggins at the Dolphins D who eventually got tired and Riggins broke a long run for a TD that sealed the win.  The Redskins were a better team, but not in the class of the '84 49'ers.

So if a total bum can take the team 27-12-1 with a 3-2 post season record.  Than Marino having not much better success than that with the same team says Marino is better than bum, but not by much.

Well would you say that 60 QB rating is pretty poor?  Well Woodley had an above 60 QB rating only 22 times in those 45 games.  Less than half of the time.

Marino on the other hand from 83-85 only had a less than 60 QB rating 5 times in 48 games.  His record was 33-9 and 3-3 post season.  His post season record doesn't look that hot, but his regular season record was better than Woodley's and his QB rating was MUCH better.

It's not like the Dolphins weren't successful after Marino got there, they made the playoffs all 3 years, they just couldn't win the big one like I already mentioned above.

Please note: I am not saying Dan was a bum.  Just pointing out that if you claim Woodley had nothing to do with the success of the Dolphins and actually was in their way, you implicitly implying Dan was not nearly as good as most people think was and nowhere near what many Dolphins fans claim about him.

That's a supremely simplistic way to look at it.  The Dolphins were LUCKY to get to the SB in '82.  It was a strike shortened season, only 9 games.  Offenses were behind defenses all year.  The Dolphins had one of the top defenses in the league.  They got there on the strength of the defense.

In '84 when the Dolphins got to the SB, it was on the strength of the offense.  The defense was still good, but not great like they were in '82 whereas the Offense was #1 in the league.  They lost the SB because Miami couldn't stop Montana, not because of anything Dan did.  He didn't have a great game but only because the Dolphins were down and he had to pass 50 times in that game and got picked off twice.  Had the defense been able to stop Montana and Marino didn't have to put it up 50 times they may havd had a chance.

It's also simplistic to say Dan had sucky teams and would have won 2 or 3 SB's with good teams. He had sucky teams MOST of his career, but in '84 and '85 they had their chance, they just couldn't take advantage.  Part of that was pure luck.  Part of it was poor play.

Basically both your assessment and the assessment that Marino would have won SB after SB if he had a good team are short sided.  Neither is correct.  The QB's just aren't as responsible for winning SB's as we all assume.  A great QB can maybe get you to the playoffs, but you better have something more than that once you get there.  Likewise a great D can get you to the playoffs, but you better have something more once you get there.

The Dolphins had a great D in '82 which helped Woodley get there, they had a great offense in '84 which is why they got there.

[Pappy13]

I could also argue that Brady/Cassel was a pretty solid combo with the second one in waiting.  Cassel is no Tom Brady, but I would think that had Brady's injury been career ending instead of season ending Matt would be the starting QB for NE and while NE would not be as strong with him as they are with Brady, the team would still be a playoff contender. 

This goes to my point.  I think Brady get's too much credit for winning all the SB's for New England when the rest of the team was pretty darn good too, not just Brady.  Even when they lost Brady, Cassel seemed to be able to play well enough to win 11 games.  Does that say more about Brady or Cassel?  I think it says more about Brady than it does Cassel.  I'm not impressed with Cassel.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I'm not impressed with Cassel.

You're not?  In 2008 they went 2-14, this season they won the division.  Not quite the 1-15 to 11-5 Miami did, but pretty darn impressive. 

[tepop84]

You're not?  In 2008 they went 2-14, this season they won the division.  Not quite the 1-15 to 11-5 Miami did, but pretty darn impressive. 

They had a pretty ridiculous defense/rushing attack.

[Pappy13]

You're not?  In 2008 they went 2-14, this season they won the division.  Not quite the 1-15 to 11-5 Miami did, but pretty darn impressive. 

Weak schedule.  Let's see them do it again next year.

[David Fulcher]

You're not?  In 2008 they went 2-14, this season they won the division.  Not quite the 1-15 to 11-5 Miami did, but pretty darn impressive. 

But, as I know both Spider and I pointed out in a previous post concerning Cassel a month ago or so, there was a whole season--a 4-12 season--in between the 2-14 and 10-6, AFC West Championship season, and besides one game to start the season, Cassel was pretty much entirely at the helm for that 2009 season as well.  What was the huge difference this season then?  Well, I'd say multiple factors, with possibly the most important one(s) being your former NEP coordinators, good ol' Romeo and Charlie Weis, assuming positions with KC in the same roles, as well as what Tepop has referred to....that KC defense is still quite young, particularly on the D-line and in the secondary, but really made some solid advances this season, and then the O-line kinda kept up what they started at the tail end of the '09 season with Jamaal Charles seeing great success.  Throwing Thomas Jones into the mix sure didn't hurt, either.  So, while I'll give you that Cassel played better this season (and I still have to wonder just how much Charlie had to do with that), looking at all the improvements he saw around his team, it makes me think that the team had just as much to do with it as himself.  The few INT's was nice to see if you're a KC fan, though.

Last thing about Cassel and him actually being legitimately good or not...not that Chad Pennington didn't experience some of the same problems two seasons before in the playoffs, but to me, Baltimore really exposed Cassel that game. ...and it's tough to even say that it's because their defense made KC one-dimensional because I believe Charles had something like 87 yards on 8 or 9 carries in the first half (though he did only get one carry in the second half, once Baltimore started jumping ahead and forcing KC to have to pass to make plays).  Dwayne Bowe getting shut down didn't help the cause, I know, but it seems like I remember him overthrowing Moeaki and some of the other skill players a lot as well. 

Anyways, sorry for the continued derail on Cassel...I'd still take him over Henne anyday!    ....... 

*edited to say that Baltimore did make KC one-dimensional, but I think it was more a result of them pulling ahead on the scoreboard so that KC felt like they had to pass in the 2nd half as compared to the Chiefs not having success running the ball, at least with Charles*

[Spider-Dan]

I think you could make a fair argument for Warner/Bulger.

[Dave Gray]

^ Yeah.  Although, Bulger seemed to fade pretty quickly.  He might've been more of a game manager than we thought.  I remember thinking that he was a good player, but he kinda just fell off the map as soon as the "greatest show on turf" started to fall apart.

[Pappy13]

You seem to be claiming that supporting cast around Woodley was the greatest collection of players ever who carried him along and that the QB been at all decent they would have been SB winners.

Well, Dave and Dan had basically the same supporting cast.

I already commented on this, but thought maybe a few comments from someone who was there, Nat Moore, might shed some light on this as well as tie this into context with current events. In a recent column by Armando, Nat made it clear that the Dolphins should try to practice as much as possible during this lockout. He explained how the 2 teams that practiced the most in 1982 during the strike, ended up in the superbowl...

"And in 1982, the two teams that stuck together, practiced every day, got together and go the actual content of what was happening in the meetings, those were the teams that played for the Super Bowl."

Moore was talking, of course, about the Dolphins and Redskins.

"Both teams, we were out 56 days, but we got together every day at Miami-Dade Junior College North and we got a report from (player rep) Jimmy Cefalo about what was going on in New York. And that kept everyone's minds at ease. In the meantime, we worked on practicing and staying in shape and working on the stuff we knew we'd be doing when we got back. And in the process, we were way ahead of everybody we played against. The Washington Redskins, with Joe Theismann and his group, they did the same thing. They practiced three times a week while we practiced every day."

So just because David Woodley led the Dolphins to the Superbowl in '82, he really wasn't that great of a QB. The Dolphins were smart that year and took advantage of the strike to practice and ended up in the SB because they were ahead of the teams that didn't. Woodley and the Dolphins had a built in advantage in '82, Marino had no such advantage in '84.

The reality is that Woodly was rather fortunate to get into the Superbowl in '82, Marino on the other hand deserved to be there.