Socialized Health Care Thoughts

[Buddhagirl]

Who is your insurance carrier?

Aetna

  Sorry, but cannot agree that HC is a right.   It may be a necessity but not a right.  I do agree with the rest of the above quote, but does that mean universal health care is the answer?

I do think that universal healthcare is the answer. If you don't feel comfortable with it, opt out and pay your bills out of your own pocket. Everything that you say in these issues seems to come more from the point of view that you want to make sure no one gets one red cent from you that doesn't "deserve" it. Everything's not that easy.

Will there be people that abuse the system? Of course. Will it also help many hard working people that become sick keep from filing for bankruptcy or deciding between a house payment and an operation? I hope so.

With that said, I don't know what the exact answer is. That's why I elect the people that are smarter than me and that I think can get the job done.

[landlocked]

The only real world opinion that i can get is from my wife's bosses who are all from Edmonton,Alberta and they tell me that the system up there stinks.That it takes forever to get an appointment and then when you do the care is sub-standard.

[run_to_win]

Let's begin with malpractice insurance.  It's over $100,000 for family doctors/general practitioners, and other than refer you to a specialist, or not refer you, they really don't perform any high risk procedures.

$100,000 is about $50 an hour.

Could tort-reform be a round about way of bringing down the cost of healthcare?

[Spider-Dan]

The only real world opinion that i can get is from my wife's bosses who are all from Edmonton,Alberta and they tell me that the system up there stinks.That it takes forever to get an appointment and then when you do the care is sub-standard.

For what it's worth, while you will have people complaining about anything the government runs, I believe the number of Canadians that, when asked, would prefer to replace their system (with something like, say, ours) is in the single-digit percentage.

[run_to_win]

This link implies 9%:
http://blogs.e-rockford.com/sweenyreport/2008/07/01/91-percent-of-canadians-like-their-health-care-system/

This older link implies 13%:
http://www.medhunters.com/articles/healthcareInCanada.html

I would guess that anyone would be cool with free healthcare as long as it is competent, thorough and readily available.  It's those who have suffer while waiting who probably object.   

The US system is somewhat flexible in that you can petition your insurance to cover a procedure or ask for donations from the general public.  Is the Canadian system flexible?  I've heard that it's regardless of money/ability to pay.  If you have 3 months to live and your life saving operation is scheduled 6 months out .... too bad. 

What percentage of American's are dissatisfied with their own health insurance?  For us, the availability isn't an issue, it's affordability.  Either you have good insurance or you don't.

From the second link:

Q: How is the healthcare system funded?

A: Canada's healthcare system is funded by both the federal government, and by the provincial and territorial governments. The main source of revenue is taxation, i.e., personal and corporate income taxes (in some provinces, sales tax is also used). Some provinces also charge a yearly healthcare premium based on annual income. In Ontario, for example, an individual with taxable income of C$48,500 (US$40,500) would pay a premium of C$575 (US$480) in the 2005 tax year.

Who wouldn't pay just over 1% for our current system?  That's were our inefficient government comes into play.  They could never do it for that amount. 

If we're paying 5-10% and experiencing the same problems that 9-13% of Canadians do then is it a better deal?

[Dphins4me]

I do think that universal healthcare is the answer. If you don't feel comfortable with it, opt out and pay your bills out of your own pocket.

Why do you feel its the answer?  Might not have that option.

Everything that you say in these issues seems to come more from the point of view that you want to make sure no one gets one red cent from you that doesn't "deserve" it. Everything's not that easy.

Is America the land of opportunity or entitlement?  It has nothing to do with someone getting something from me that does not deserve it.  It has everything to do about being free & living off your effort & not off the hand of Gov. & not asking them to pay when you need something.  Some of you laugh when I make statements that the Gov could start laying down the law on your health if they are now supporting your poor health.  All I can say is where have your been if you believe the Gov will not want a say in your life.

Also, this thread was suppose to be about how each of us thought it would work.  Not diss the person asking how you think it will

Will there be people that abuse the system? Of course. Will it also help many hard working people that become sick keep from filing for bankruptcy or deciding between a house payment and an operation? I hope so..

Of course they will be abuse.  The Gov is running it.  They are simply to incompetent to watch for such abuse.

I'm just trying to figure out how some here think its going to be an open checkbook & not have to apply to a bureaucrat  to get approval for a procedure.

With that said, I don't know what the exact answer is. That's why I elect the people that are smarter than me and that I think can get the job done.

  Wouldn't you like more than just two choices?

[Dphins4me]

I understand your point; I also felt Fahrenheit 9/11 was a bit ridiculous.  Similarly, in Sicko, there is a section where Moore takes the aforemention 9/11 volunteers to Cuba to get medical care (which they do), which I think is a little over the top.
 

But you should really watch the movie, if only to get a better idea of how the Canadian/British/French systems actually work.

  If I ever catch it on I'll try to sit down & watch it, but again.  No way will I be able to view it unbiased.  I know what Moore is about so him telling how their system works will not hit home since I already know he is not interested in accuracy & truth.
He lost any credibility with me on Fahrenheit 9/11.

Just a quick google search on "Sicko" Criticism provided me this.  I've not seen or ever heard of the documentary " Dead Meat " either.  Have you?

That last statement is even truer than you'd know from watching "Sicko." In the case of Canada — which Moore, like many other political activists, holds up as a utopian ideal of benevolent health-care regulation — a very different picture is conveyed by a short 2005 documentary called "Dead Meat," by Stuart Browning and Blaine Greenberg. These two filmmakers talked to a number of Canadians of a kind that Moore's movie would have you believe don't exist:

A 52-year-old woman in Calgary recalls being in severe need of joint-replacement surgery after the cartilage in her knee wore out. She was put on a wait list and wound up waiting 16 months for the surgery. Her pain was so excruciating, she says, that she was prescribed large doses of Oxycontin, and soon became addicted. After finally getting her operation, she was put on another wait list — this time for drug rehab.

A man tells about his mother waiting two years for life-saving cancer surgery — and then twice having her surgical appointments canceled. She was still waiting when she died.

A man in critical need of neck surgery plays a voicemail message from a doctor he'd contacted: "As of today," she says, "it's a two-year wait-list to see me for an initial consultation." Later, when the man and his wife both needed hip-replacement surgery and grew exasperated after spending two years on a waiting list, they finally mortgaged their home and flew to Belgium to have the operations done there, with no more waiting.

Rick Baker, the owner of a Toronto company called Timely Medical Alternatives, specializes in transporting Canadians who don't want to wait for medical care to Buffalo, New York, two hours away, where they won't have to. Baker's business is apparently thriving.

And Dr. Brian Day, now the president of the Canadian Medical Association, muses about the bizarre distortions created by a law that prohibits Canadians from paying for even urgently-needed medical treatments, or from obtaining private health insurance. "It's legal to buy health insurance for your pets," Day says, "but illegal to buy health insurance for yourself."  (Even more pointedly, Day was quoted in the Wall Street Journal this week as saying, "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.")

As Fau said, there's a major difference when you move to a single-payer system where everyone is covered.  That immediately bypasses all the "you're not eligible for coverage because you spent less than 100 hours volunteering at ground zero"-type garbage.  The question is simply this:  Are you a U.S. citizen?  If so, then you're covered.

There are no more arguments about pre-existing conditions and coverage caps.  You will not see families going bankrupt because a family member has cancer, or families having to choose whether to put their kids through college or pay for a hip replacement.

I do not believe it will be a question of being covered, but how long will they draw it out before you get it.

This is a thoroughly disproved and discredited right-wing smear.

My concern is can it lead to that.

See, here's the thing:  one of the primary reasons for the relative quickness of the current system is that you don't have to wait for final, confirmed approval from your insurance company before you get treatment.  You get your treatment, the doctor sends the ins.co. a bill.

The downside of this system is when the ins.co. starts finding reasons not to pay, and you find out (after the fact) that you are on the hook for a bill for tens of thousands of dollars.  I would submit, then, that if you prefer this type of system (where you get "speedy service" but are potentially left on the hook for large amounts of money because the ins.co. decided to kick you to the curb), why not just go to your preferred doctor and pay cash up front, avoiding the gov't entirely?  This will certainly be an option in any U.S. healthcare system.

Furthermore, when we talk about how quickly Americans get medical service, I am always reminded of when my niece had a severe asthma attack, and we were told that we couldn't go to the local emergency room because she wasn't actually unconscious.  We had to drive 30 more miles to an in-network hospital.

You can make the argument that maybe the wait at my local hospital (under a gov't healthcare system) would have been longer than the drive.  My response is, if my niece's condition worsened, I'd rather be waiting at a hospital (specifically: a hospital where they don't have to worry about if we are "covered") than stuck on the highway.

  In life threatening situation.  I would rather have speedy service.  Emergency rooms will care for you with or without insurance.  So I'm not concerned with that as much.

[bsmooth]

Who is your insurance carrier?
  Sorry, but cannot agree that HC is a right.   It may be a necessity but not a right.  I do agree with the rest of the above quote, but does that mean universal health care is the answer?

However, the point of this thread is to kick around some ideas on how each of us think it will / should work.

When does a neccesity become a right in your book? Also you have not thrown out many ideas on your own there sparky, you have pretty much torn apart other peoples idea's without presenting any true solutions of your own besides your "not with my tax money" mantra.
Also since you talk about self destructive behavior I am sure you are all for the end of the tobacco, alcohol, fast food, snack food industries as they all cause more harm than they contribute to the general good of our country.

[Buddhagirl]

Dphins, all we've heard is your incessant whining about universal health care. What would you like to see done?

[Dphins4me]

When does a neccesity become a right in your book?

When it is written in the bill of rights..

Majority of Americans feel owning a car is a necessity.  Does that make it a right?
Majority of Americans feel owning a TV is a necessity.   Does that make it a right?

HC is a problem in this country for these reasons.  We do not take care of ourselves.  We want to eat food that is void of nutrition & loaded with sodium & sugar. We do not want to exercise.  Our food is loaded with chemicals.  Our water is loaded with chemicals.  We want a pill to solve our problems.

That is why HC is an issue.

Also you have not thrown out many ideas on your own there sparky, you have pretty much torn apart other peoples idea's without presenting any true solutions of your own besides your "not with my tax money" mantra.

Did you not read the original post of this thread.  I gave my opinion on how it could /should work
I've not torn anyone's opinion apart on this.   I've ask them have they considered this or that or this is my fear with that.  You guys want to focus on me rather than discuss something as adults.

Also since you talk about self destructive behavior I am sure you are all for the end of the tobacco, alcohol, fast food, snack food industries as they all cause more harm than they contribute to the general good of our country.

Its the abuse of these items that cause the problems.  

Smoking one cigarette a day will not harm you. Smoking two packs a day will greatly increase your odds that they will.

 Having one snack cake today will not harm you.  Having 20 a week will greatly increase your odds that they will.

Drinking one beer today will not harm you.  Drinking a 60 a week will greatly increase your odds that they will.

Too much water at one time can kill you.  So again its the abuse or lack of self control that harm us.

[Dphins4me]

Dphins, all we've heard is your incessant whining about universal health care. What would you like to see done?

Can you not have an adult conversation without insults?  I take everyone abuse here without returning, because I'm trying to have a discussion. 

What I want first is for people simply to start taking some interest in their own health. Stop asking the doctor to do something for you & do it yourself.  Stop eathing the crap on a daily basis that forces them to run to the doctor to get a pill.

You get more people taking an interest in their own health & it will lower the need for HC & cost will come down.  HC is simply supply & demand.  As with everything else.  Lower the demand & prices will come down.

 Pharm is the driving cost of HC.  Pills do not make you healthy.

[Buddhagirl]

Can you not have an adult conversation without insults?  I take everyone abuse here without returning, because I'm trying to have a discussion. 

What I want first is for people simply to start taking some interest in their own health. Stop asking the doctor to do something for you & do it yourself.  Stop eathing the crap on a daily basis that forces them to run to the doctor to get a pill.

You get more people taking an interest in their own health & it will lower the need for HC & cost will come down.  HC is simply supply & demand.  As with everything else.  Lower the demand & prices will come down.

 Pharm is the driving cost of HC.  Pills do not make you healthy.

And for those that do take care of themselves and still need pills to stay healthy. What would you like them to do?

[Spider-Dan]

  If I ever catch it on I'll try to sit down & watch it, but again.  No way will I be able to view it unbiased.  I know what Moore is about so him telling how their system works will not hit home since I already know he is not interested in accuracy & truth.

Fair enough.  You should still watch it, though.

With regard to Dead Meat: just as you can find people who have fallen through the cracks in the Canadian system, you can find people who have fallen through the cracks in the American system (some of them are in Sicko).  The difference is that in Canada, 100% of citizens are covered and ~90% of them are satisfied with their services.  In America, nearly 20% don't have healthcare insurance to begin with.  Even if 100% of covered Americans were satisfied with their services, we'd still be lagging behind.

My concern is can it lead to [gov't determination of services rendered].

I'll take the possibility of future problems over the reality of current problems.

In life threatening situation.  I would rather have speedy service.  Emergency rooms will care for you with or without insurance.  So I'm not concerned with that as much.

If I go to an emergency room (with healthcare insurance) and my ins.co. tells me to leave, I am personally on the hook for any bills I incur.  So what's the point of having healthcare insurance if, when I really need it, I'm going to have to pay out of pocket anyway?

[Spider-Dan]

Dphins4me, I suggest you stay on topic.

The topic is not "how can Americans improve their daily health habits."  It would be great if we lived in a society where people didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't eat unhealthy foods, and exercised regularly.  (And for the record, the U.S. rates better than most of the gov't healthcare countries in % of smokers and drinkers.)  But unless you are suggesting some sort of law to require this (or some sort of other direct incentive), then it's a pipe dream.  The option to "live healthier" has existed for a long time, and it (meaning, the availability of the option) is clearly not a substitute for healthcare insurance.

[Fau Teixeira]

When it is written in the bill of rights..

have you ever read the constitution?

how about the bill of rights ?

because this is one of the amendments in the bill of rights:

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

see .. what that means is that rights are rights .. if the people of this country deem them to be rights .. that's all it takes ..

we could all say that we have a right to government funded ice cream sundays for everyone .. and if the "people" read "congress" makes that a law .. then it is constitutional  and is a RIGHT

so maybe while you're looking for what rights are written in the bill of rights .. you should maybe read it first