Socialized Health Care Thoughts

[Dphins4me]

If my politicians can "trick" me into voting for them by passing laws that benefit me, I'm all for it.  I'm not sure how else you think representative gov't is supposed to work.

  Because Gov should be about the whole & not just a certain ones.  Gov. should not play a role in whether you are a success or failure.

Gov is making people lazy & dependent on them.  Sitting there waiting for our next meal ticket.  With more & more taking this route.  How do you expect Gov. to pay & pay for everything else?

Then those are people who do not have health insurance.  If I have the opportunity to buy healthcare insurance at some prohibitively expensive price, and I choose not to do it, then you think I shouldn't count as a person without insurance?.

Why wouldn't you?   What if you were a person who wanted to drive a Mercedes at a cost of $600 a month, but then choose to not have HC so you could?  Would you not to be expected to count?

I've noticed with people..  They want things they need to be cheap, but do not mind paying an expensive price for things they want.  Some one will drop $4000 on a new plasma TV, but complain if they are asked to pay $2500 for HC.

Going by the figures RTW cited, Canadians pay ~1% of their income towards their national healthcare plan.  I pay over 10% of my gross paycheck for my healthcare plan... and I have a hell of a lot less coverage than any Canadian.  Our current system is a joke.

  As with the other percentages you quote & have not provided yet on the on them being happy with their HC.  Where are you pulling that 1%?

Latent calls for a newfound sense of fiscal responsibility fall on deaf ears.  I do not accept that it is perfectly okay to spend money we don't have on foreign wars, but when it comes to actually helping our citizens, somehow fiscal policy must be maintained above all..

My comment has nothing to do with the cost of war.  We do not have the money for it either.  However, facts are facts.  We are in debt, China basically owns us & we cannot continue to spend.

I do not consider the freedom to be sick, or the freedom to amass overwhelming healthcare debt, to be worthwhile, desirable freedoms.


Fundamentally, I see providing healthcare for every citizen as more important to their ability to actually realize their freedom than a slight tax break, or some abstract concept of personal liberty.  Healthcare costs greatly curtail the actual freedom of too many Americans.

  If people are so concerned with HC cost, then why are they not taking an interest in themselves?  I get you believe this, but could be wrong that taking a pill makes you healthy?  Are you taking an interest in your own health? 

What exactly do you mean by "increased cost"?

The same reason it cost so much now.  Medical facilities are in demand.  The higher the demand the higher the cost.   47 million more able to run to the doctor for a sniffle will put a higher demand on our facilities.

I can envision no circumstance in which the medical industry is nationalized.

When the cost go up because of the higher demand.. 
1: Gov will be paying more.
2: Gov will be asking for more taxes. 
3: People will complain.
4: Gov will step in to control the cost.  Only way to do that.  Nationalize.
...

This is how it works right now!  The haves can already buy better and faster service!

The only difference is that instead of the have nots getting nothing, they have access to the basic healthcare they need.

The cost of this will be unimaginable. 

[Dphins4me]

Excellent response, thank you for taking the time to put that out there for me.  That answers my questions completely.  I also enjoy the fact that you think about using any product, I wish I had your discipline.

I would love to discuss your fibro diagnosis and responses to treatment some day (whole new topic).

Thanks again, good post.

Great & PM me if you want to discuss the fibro.

[Dphins4me]

Under the British system, doctors earn bonuses based on their ability to reduce the health problems (cholesterol, blood pressure, etc.) of their patients.

Does this mean simply putting them on drugs?

Would you complain about people who take their car to the mechanic for "every little problem"?

Yea, if they were asking someone else to pick up the tab.

A free national healthcare program encourages people to use it.  This is a good thing.  The more often patients visit with their doctors, the more likely it is that problems can be resolved early on.  If you visit a doctor because you're wheezing and are frequently short of breath, it's easier to treat a sickness in the early stages than if you wait until you are bedridden and can barely breathe.

  Then you waited to long.  If you are wheezing for a few days, then you might not need to go to the doctor.  Been wheezing for a several weeks.  Might be time to go.

[bsfins]

Would you complain about people who take their car to the mechanic for "every little problem"?

I'm talking about the people,that cal the doctor,and make an appointment for the same day,they get there,the doctor asks them have you taken anything for this headache,they reply no..the doctor says here's two Tylonal...Bye bye...

I know several of these people,because either it doesn't cost them much,because of their insurence,or they get medicaid..It pisses me off....

**8Hijack***
Yes I hate people that take their cars to the mechanics for every little squeak,but yet again if they can afford it,more power too them....The majority of people can't afford to take their car for regular maintenance,let alone for necessary things as reccommended...

My Father the crook,in the 1970's owned many car dealer ships..People that Did bring their car in for every little thing,would get the " Sun treatment".Park it out back,maybe with the hood open for 2,4,6 hours,charge them $100,maybe have the Salesman take it to get lunch....8 out of ten times the customer would swear it's purring like a kitten afterwards.....**End hijack***

[Spider-Dan]

  Because Gov should be about the whole & not just a certain ones.

It's funny that you word your response this way, since you seem to value the financial freedom of "certain ones" over a system that would benefit a very large chunk of the whole.

Gov is making people lazy & dependent on them.

I do not view healthcare for every citizen as making them "lazy and dependent," any more than I see public schools as making parents "lazy and dependent."

If I have the opportunity to buy healthcare insurance at some prohibitively expensive price, and I choose not to do it, then you think I shouldn't count as a person without insurance?.

Why wouldn't you?

Because the insurance is prohibitively expensive.

If your argument is that there are a substantial number of Americans that have access to healthcare no matter how expensive, then every American has access to healthcare.  (Well, except the ones that the ins.co.s refuse to insure because of "pre-existing conditions.")  But this is a useless exercise; the real question is whether Americans have access to affordable healthcare.

  As with the other percentages you quote & have not provided yet on the on them being happy with their HC.  Where are you pulling that 1%?

Read the thread.  I clearly stated, "going by the figures RTW cited," which should give you a clue.

The same reason it cost so much now.  Medical facilities are in demand.  The higher the demand the higher the cost.   47 million more able to run to the doctor for a sniffle will put a higher demand on our facilities.
When the cost go up because of the higher demand.. 
1: Gov will be paying more.
2: Gov will be asking for more taxes. 
3: People will complain.
4: Gov will step in to control the cost.  Only way to do that.  Nationalize.

Are you familiar with the term "bargaining power"?  When the gov't enters the market, prices will go down, not up.

Any doctor that does not want to accept gov't-insured clients should be free to do so; if you want to eliminate 90%+ of your potential clientele, have fun running your business.

[Spider-Dan]

Under the British system, doctors earn bonuses based on their ability to reduce the health problems (cholesterol, blood pressure, etc.) of their patients.

Does this mean simply putting them on drugs?

Drugs are one of the tools that the doctors have at their discretion.

Would you complain about people who take their car to the mechanic for "every little problem"?

Yea, if they were asking someone else to pick up the tab.

Let me rephrase my question:

If you are responsible for all major repairs of this vehicle, and you are the one that will be required to spend large amounts of money fixing expensive, systemic problems due to lack of maintenance, are you still going to complain about the driver taking the vehicle to the mechanic "a little too often"?

Your argument only makes sense if you ignore the fact that the gov't would be ultimately responsible for treating major health problems.  As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure; I'd rather have people go to the doctor with minor concerns than wait around for the minor concerns to become major ones.

Then you waited to long.  If you are wheezing for a few days, then you might not need to go to the doctor.  Been wheezing for a several weeks.  Might be time to go.

Are you qualified to give a medical opinion on exactly how long one should wait?  Can you confidently say that waiting "several weeks" will not make the problem much worse... when you don't even know what the disease is?

This is exactly why people should not be discouraged from visiting the doctor.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm talking about the people,that cal the doctor,and make an appointment for the same day,they get there,the doctor asks them have you taken anything for this headache,they reply no..the doctor says here's two Tylonal...Bye bye...

I'll be happy to accept people making an appt. to cure a headache if it means we catch more people in the early stages of pneumonia.

I'm sure some of the medical professionals on this board (e.g. MaineDolfan) have more insight as to the kinds of diseases that can be effectively stemmed with early diagnosis.

[bsfins]

^^you're missing the point...People go to the doctor for a headache,every other week,and it's nothing....

[Spider-Dan]

No, you're missing the point.

What percentage of patients do you suppose first-day-headaches are?  Even under our current system, are you going to get a same-day appt. for a headache you developed today?

You are exaggerating a non-existent problem.  I'm saying that the vanishing minority of "frivolous" visits are an acceptable loss, if it means that we catch the effectively-treatable diseases as early as possible.  People should be encouraged to visit their doctor... it will keep costs DOWN in the long run.

[bsfins]

  the exact reason why I didn't why to even start in this thread.....Half my Fucking office goes to the Doctor because they can.....They've never come up with Brain Tumors...Stop Piulling Bull shit Dan...People do take advantage of the system....

[Spider-Dan]

Lil B, I have a question for you:

If "half your office" goes to the doctor right now, when they have to pay for it, who are you to call it frivolous?  How is it "taking advantage of the system" to legitimately use health insurance that they are paying for?

If you think it's "taking advantage of the system" NOW, then of course you'll think it's taking advantage when the gov't is paying for it.

I am also forced to wonder how you can possibly know what your co-workers "excessive" doctor visits have or have not prevented.

[bsfins]

My Boss,pulled a muscle playing raquet ball (hamstring)...Went to the doctor....2 of the girls in the office...1 everytime she gets a headache,I need an hour off...I have a doctor's appoinment.....She's fine the next day...He gives her 2 asprin send her on her way...The other girl...Every other month,when she gets her period,she has to run to the Doctor....She gets cramps,they give her Mydol,or pamprin..or something....

It's not preventive stuff..It's B.S...The Doctor is more than happy to see him,he gets paid......They don't have to pay for it,If the Bill was $200 each time,they might use a little common sense...A little common sense goes along way....

Modified to say...I understand I can't feel someone elses pain...but Alot of their Complaints are frivolous.

They stand outside My office and Bitch about the doctor's visits......I went to the Doctor,Because I had a haedache blah, Blah,Blah...

[Dphins4me]

If my politicians can "trick" me into voting for them by passing laws that benefit me, I'm all for it.  I'm not sure how else you think representative gov't is supposed to work.

Been thinking on this comment a little & to expand on.

Do you have a retirement plan?  401K, IRA, Pension

 If so,

If the Gov. or the people to satisfy Fau, decided that a retirement was a necessity/right for everyone & in order to fund it then would you be alright if they seized 15% of your fund in order to pay out to everyone in retirement?

Not quite the same, but in the ballpark.

[Dphins4me]

It's funny that you word your response this way, since you seem to value the financial freedom of "certain ones" over a system that would benefit a very large chunk of the whole.

Financial system is open for everyone to make of it for what they can.  Poor people have became rich by working within the system.

I do not view healthcare for every citizen as making them "lazy and dependent," any more than I see public schools as making parents "lazy and dependent."

You may not see if, but its there.   HC in itself may not be but its just another item for people to get from them.

Why wouldn't you?
Because the insurance is prohibitively expensive.

So are brand new cars & trucks, but until recently it has not prohibit people from purchasing them.

If your argument is that there are a substantial number of Americans that have access to healthcare no matter how expensive, then every American has access to healthcare.  (Well, except the ones that the ins.co.s refuse to insure because of "pre-existing conditions.")  But this is a useless exercise; the real question is whether Americans have access to affordable healthcare.
.

  Who determines what is affordable?

Read the thread.  I clearly stated, "going by the figures RTW cited," which should give you a clue.

Did RTW post that 92% of Canadians are happy with there HC?  Gonna have to go back then.

Are you familiar with the term "bargaining power"?  When the gov't enters the market, prices will go down, not up.

Going to have to show me how the prices go down when Gov enters the market.   My cable bill went up when they started regulating it.

Any doctor that does not want to accept gov't-insured clients should be free to do so; if you want to eliminate 90%+ of your potential clientele, have fun running your business.

  Back to the point.  Why would anyone pay the cost of medical school to have the Gov. tell them what they can charge? or is the Gov going to pick up that tab?

[Dphins4me]

Drugs are one of the tools that the doctors have at their discretion.

   How many doctors know more than drugs anymore?

If you are responsible for all major repairs of this vehicle, and you are the one that will be required to spend large amounts of money fixing expensive, systemic problems due to lack of maintenance, are you still going to complain about the driver taking the vehicle to the mechanic "a little too often"?


Your argument only makes sense if you ignore the fact that the gov't would be ultimately responsible for treating major health problems.  As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure; I'd rather have people go to the doctor with minor concerns than wait around for the minor concerns to become major ones.

  Probably not.  However, you get 300 million doing it & the cost of those simply check ups will greatly increase.

The difference is no one will die if a mechanic is wrong.  However, a doctor is wrong or does not order the right test he is open to a malpractice claim.  So they are putting more of a burden on the system.

Are you qualified to give a medical opinion on exactly how long one should wait?  Can you confidently say that waiting "several weeks" will not make the problem much worse... when you don't even know what the disease is?

This is exactly why people should not be discouraged from visiting the doctor.

  If a condition is advancing that a couple of weeks is deadly.  Then I'd say the odds are against you making it.  This is another reason HC is so costly.  Doctor are now ordering unnecessary test to cover their arses from a malpractice claim.

More test being ran, more cost to the system.