Questions for military people on the thirteenth year of the Hollywood shootout

[dolphins4life]

I was in first grade when it happened, so I obviously it didn't affect me, however, I've seen documentaries on it and questions still remain.  I'd like to hear from military personnal on this site who might be able to answer them.

1) Why does the military give soldiers Kevlar armour plates?  One of the officers in the shootout was wearing a Kevlar armour vest and the gunmen's bullets penetrated right through it.  With the high tech weaponry America's enemies possess, wouldn't it be more sensible to use aramid? 

2) The gunmen wore aramid body armour.  When SWAT was called, they used automatic weapons that were supposed to be able to penetrate it.  However, during the final shootout with Mataseranu, one officer shot him at point black range in the chest, however, Mataseranu was saved by his armour.  The officers had to shoot his unprotected legs to end the fight.  Is aramid capable of withstanding any bullet? That's what is disturbing about this to me.  It could happen again and this time, if the crimminals wear leg protection, that outcome could be much different, and much more tragic. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I am not a military person, but I can answer some of your questions.

Kevlar is a type of aramid, in fact the most common type.  I think the robbers had kevlar as well.

The robbers were wearing military grade body armor the police wore law enforcement grade (lighter, less uncomfortable, but less protection than military grade.)
 
The other difference was the robbers had armor piercing bullets and the cops did not.  The robbers also had more powerful riffles than the swat team. 
 

[Defense54]

Its like saying , why do the Police drive 4 door Fords when Hummers are available? Co$t.  My City Offered me up to $700 for my vest when I was hired. You need to remember you work in 90* heat at times and most of the time your going hands on with someone , not going to be in a shootout. Best option is get the best allaround vest. I paid and extra $160 for steel inserts on my chest . Every 5 years they will put another $700 up for a new one.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Defense I am guessing yours will repeal a knife or a .22 but wouldn't stop an M16 fired at close range.

[Defense54]

Not a knife. Its not designed for that.  A ballistic vest absorbs energy and spreads it through the way the fibers are intertwined. A knife cuts, they have chain vests for prisons were shanks and stuff are an issue. I do have a steel metal plate in a pocket in the vest over my heart though. .22  ,9mm even a .40 might cause a cracked rib or a punctured lung, but no boo-boo through the skin.

[bsmooth]

The vest were wore overseas were heavy and cumbersome which reduces mobility and is very uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. It also puts a lot of stress on the neck, shoulders, lower back, and knees. There have been a lot of injuries just due to the vest themselves.
The SAPE plates we used were replaced with an upgraded plate to better withstand the newer AP rounds from the AK's.
Even with the upgraded armor, not all rounds were stopped from penetrating.
My vest with regular plates weighed 30lbs. This was with no ammo or any gear that would go on the vest as you could not wear the other gear anywhere else on your upper body.
By the time I was geared up for going outside the wire, my armor weighed in at over 60lbs.
That is why law enforcement armor is so different than the military armor. It is a bitch to move around and to get in and out of vehicles.

[dolphins4life]

Mataseranu's armour DID stop an M-16 at close range

He was wearing trauma plates underneath which might have helped. 

[Defense54]

The vest were wore overseas were heavy and cumbersome which reduces mobility and is very uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. It also puts a lot of stress on the neck, shoulders, lower back, and knees. There have been a lot of injuries just due to the vest themselves.
The SAPE plates we used were replaced with an upgraded plate to better withstand the newer AP rounds from the AK's.
Even with the upgraded armor, not all rounds were stopped from penetrating.
My vest with regular plates weighed 30lbs. This was with no ammo or any gear that would go on the vest as you could not wear the other gear anywhere else on your upper body.
By the time I was geared up for going outside the wire, my armor weighed in at over 60lbs.
That is why law enforcement armor is so different than the military armor. It is a bitch to move around and to get in and out of vehicles.

Exactly. I know some oldschool cops that wear nothing still. Its just too uncomfortable for them. They didn't really exist 20-30 yrs ago for Law Enforcement so its hard for them to get used to it. I feel naked without it. But you can only wear so much of it and still be effective day in and day out. Under fire I want to be able to run and get out the way then be bullet proof anyday of the week.

[MaineDolFan]

I remember this like it was yesterday as I have relatives in the North Hollywood area.  I remember watching it with typical arm chair QB comments, wondering where the hell SWAT was.  I couldn't believe officers in that part of the country, facing what they face on a daily basis, didn't have more fire power in their cruisers. 

What bs says is on the mark.  From what I understand, these guys carried an extreme amount of armor on them.  In addition to being woefully out-gunned, the L.A. PD were basically doing the equivallant of trying to bring down a polar bear with a .22 caliber weapon. 

These guys knew exactly what they were going to be in for and prepared for exactly that.  The extra weight these guys carried around was said to be that of about five bowling balls.  You can't expect patrol to be able to do that, not long term.

Here is something I'll never understand about the response to this:  Phillips and Matasareanu had been in action before.  They robbed a couple armed cars.  It isn't like the police didn't know their M.O.  The jacked an armored car two years earlier for something like 1.5 million. 

And, yet, the responding officers had a 9mm, a 38 and a 12 gauge.  Hooray. The responding 5-0 didn't have a prayer, God bless 'em.  Their suspects had full body armor and metal trauma plates.  In addition they were hopped up on barbiturates to slow everything down.  Those officers walked into a gun battle with soup spoons.

18 minutes.  That is how long it took SWAT to get there.  18 freakin' minutes. SWAT came to play but holy crap it took them too long to respond.  The 40th MP Company of Los Alamitos has a splinter MP / CID unit in Burbank, it would have taken them about 8 minutes to deploy if asked. 

I don't think I will ever understand the time it took for that SWAT to arrive.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I general am the last to go out on a limb to defend the action of the LAPD, but Maine I think you are being overly critical of the LA Swat team.

It is not like the LA SWAT team is kept in a state of readiness equivilant to a fire department.  It takes time to assess that they are needed, notify people, assemble, travel and deploy. 

I seriously doubt that 40th MP company would have gotten off base within 8 mintutes of a call to deploy let alone gotten to the scene. 

It wasn't a fair fight.  One side showed up prepared to have a gun battle with people carring armor piercing bullets, the other didn't.  But given how rare events like this one that occured over a decade ago occur, I don't see why anyone would expect cops to be prepared for it like it was an every day occurance.

It is however reason to prohit the sale and possesion of armor piercing bullets to non-military/non-LEO and prohibit body armor.     

[Sunstroke]

^^^ I can see prohibiting the sale of armor piercing ammunition, but the moment you try to take away a person's right to buy body armor, you start treading on that person's right to protect himself in an increasingly nutty and violent world.

[MaineDolFan]

I general am the last to go out on a limb to defend the action of the LAPD, but Maine I think you are being overly critical of the LA Swat team.

It is not like the LA SWAT team is kept in a state of readiness equivilant to a fire department.  It takes time to assess that they are needed, notify people, assemble, travel and deploy. 

I seriously doubt that 40th MP company would have gotten off base within 8 mintutes of a call to deploy let alone gotten to the scene. 

It wasn't a fair fight.  One side showed up prepared to have a gun battle with people carring armor piercing bullets, the other didn't.  But given how rare events like this one that occured over a decade ago occur, I don't see why anyone would expect cops to be prepared for it like it was an every day occurance.

It is however reason to prohit the sale and possesion of armor piercing bullets to non-military/non-LEO and prohibit body armor.     

Not to pull rank on you here, however...

Me = former military

You = not

I am very clear on how long it would take an MP unit to mobilize when called.

I am also very well versed on how long it should take a SWAT unit to respond, in the least a partial response.

For my dollar, 18 minutes was a butt screw long time for SWAT to respond.  Ask one of the one of the uniformed officers that was pinned down while trying to defend himself by tossing pebbles at the guys if HE thought SWAT was a touch slow to respond and see what they think.

18 minutes of being pinned down by superior firepower.  18 minutes.  Man.

At the time this happened, The L.A. office had 15 SWAT teams.  The D team was supposed to be the rapid responder.  I guess I'm not considering 18 minutes a rapid response.  Even the robbers expected a quicker response, they were prepared for a SWAT invasion at 8 minutes.  North Hollywood isn't exactly an area that isn't well patrolled.

My educated opinion, based on my real world experience.  I get where you are coming from in that 18 minutes isn't a long time in other circumstances.  In this one it is...at least for me, based on the region and resources available.  If this were in Fall River and the 1st available SWAT was in Southie, I can buy 18 minutes.  Not North Hollywood. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Not to pull rank on you here, however...

Me = former military

You = not

Nice BS way to try and end a discussion.

I am very clear on how long it would take an MP unit to mobilize when called.
 

If you are former military than you should know damn well that an MP unit can't be mobilized for bank robbery.  So your 8 min stat is total BS and you are talking out of your ass.     




*edited to remove personal attack.  (Please don't do that.)

[Dave Gray]

Not to pull rank on you here, however...

Me = former military

You = not

Logical fallacy = Argument of Authority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[Defense54]

SWAT team members do not sit around playing cards waiting for a crisis. They are all in other parts of the force. Traffic, the Road, ect.  First up a Lt or higher has to determine the need. Then depending on the crisis they will meet at the station and suit up and get briefed and then respond .  In an extreme crisis someone can get the Van and they will meet on site and get briefed while getting prepared.

So.....

LT or Captain determines the need.

SWAT members are mobilized

They need to be briefed

RESPONSE


18 minutes sounds about right.

The one thing that I never got about that incident ........Why weren't they gassed? Armour or not, a couple Pepper bullets under the chin will bring almost any grown man to his knees.

Fire department High Powered water hoses.......Knock them on their asses. Oh thats right , fireman are pussies.    (just kidding)