What's happening with the Ring of Dishonor?

[Spider-Dan]

Wanny didn't have the eye for talent that JJ did, but I give him credit for being able to continue along with JJ's approximate level of success.  It's pretty easy for a new coach to come in and completely detonate a team.  I also give him credit for pulling the trigger on Ricky; say what you will about the ultimate results, but trading for a back that immediately leads the league in rushing the next year is, in itself, a HUGE success.  If Wallace goes out and leads the league (in yards or TDs) next year, Ireland/Philbin will deserve similar credit.

Wanny's teams were the last consistently competitive teams that the Dolphins have fielded.  I do feel that he had a run of bad luck with Fiedler getting injured in 2002; that team was (and is) the strongest Dolphin team since at least '93.

[BigDaddyFin]

You have a strange definition of "instant."

If you really want to pinpoint when the franchise went in the dumps, it would have to be the moment one Nick Saban took over.  The best thing you can say for him is that he drafted a one-time Pro Bowler.  No division titles, no playoff appearances (much less wins), and the definitive moment of his tenure was Culpepper over Brees.

The only thing Johnson managed to do while he was in Miami is build a decent defense.  Miami had been a playoff team before that under Shula. From 1990-1995 the Dolphins made the playoffs 4 out of 6 years and won two division titles.  Yes they made the playoffs three of four years under Johnson. 

Jimmy Johnson never managed to draft a running back who lasted longer than two years in the NFL.
Jimmy Johnson gutted the entire offense and took away Marino's ability to audible at the line.  Under Kippy Brown the offense actually resembled a high school team at times.
Jimmy Johnson's tenure also ended in an even more embarrassing playoff loss.
Jimmy Johnson never cranked out anything at wide receiver.
Jimmy Johnson retired and then unretired in what was also one of the more embarrassing moments in franchise history and the players completely gave up on him at the end of the 1999 season.

Jimmy Johnson then turns operation over to Wannstedt who rides what is a championship caliber defense to a division title and playoff win in his first two seasons.  Miami never makes the playoffs again with him as head coach and he resigns midway through a 4-12 campaign, the worst in franchise history to that point. 
Wannstedt repeatedly wastes draft picks along with Rick Spielman trying to replace Tim Ruddy, Fullback, and Outside linebacker. 
Wannstedt passes on Drew Brees in the 2001 draft for underachieving Chris Chambers.
Wannstedt also spends his last three seasons trying to replace Jay Fiedler who if nothing else was better than (2002) Ray Lucas (2003) Brian Griese (2004) AJ Feeley.

Wannstedt leaves and Jimmy Johnson himself recommends Wayne Huizenga go out and hire Nick Saban. 
Saban cuts Gus Frerotte (at least serviceable) and passes on Drew Brees (again) for Daunte Turnover Factory Culpepper.
Saban then spends the last quarter of a 6-10 season telling everyone how he's not going to be the coach at Alabama only to become the coach at Alabama.

Jimmy Johnson is directly or indirectly responsible for all of this, including a now 13 year long stretch without a playoff victory.

[Spider-Dan]

The only thing Johnson managed to do while he was in Miami is build a decent defense.

Jimmy Johnson then turns operation over to Wannstedt who rides what is a championship caliber defense to a division title and playoff win in his first two seasons.

One of these things is not like the other...

Shula, the defensive mastermind, had OVER TEN YEARS to build a passable defense for Marino and completely wasted Marino's prime years.  JJ took over and built a "championship caliber defense" from scratch in three years.

Yes, JJ had as many problems as Shula did finding a RB.  Wanny found the best one in the league!  So why doesn't Wanny get some credit for that?

Your analysis seems to skip directly from the powerhouse Dolphins of the '70s and early '80s directly to 1996.  The Dolphins of the late '80s and early '90s (under Shula) were basically the same team that they were under JJ and Wanny: a competitive playoff team with some serious flaws (Shula: defense, JJ: run game, Wanny: QB) keeping it from top contender status.   This is a damn sight better than the Dolphins have been since Wanny left, which is a mediocre bubble team that could be 11-5 or 0-7, depending on what kind of breaks they get.

Miami never makes the playoffs again with him as head coach and he resigns midway through a 4-12 campaign, the worst in franchise history to that point.

The Dolphins finished 3-11 in 1966 and 3-10-1 in 1969, so this statement is not accurate.

Wannstedt passes on Drew Brees in the 2001 draft for underachieving Chris Chambers.

The team that picked Drew Brees in that draft ended up picking another QB #1 overall three years later, because Brees sucked.  Then they let Brees walk for nothing.  I'm not sure how replicating that would have helped Wanny.

Wannstedt leaves and Jimmy Johnson himself recommends Wayne Huizenga go out and hire Nick Saban. 

So based on this purported recommendation, JJ is more responsible for Saban's actions than Huizenga (who hired JJ, Wanny, AND Saban) or Saban himself?  How does that work?

[Landshark]

One of these things is not like the other...

Shula, the defensive mastermind, had OVER TEN YEARS to build a passable defense for Marino and completely wasted Marino's prime years.  JJ took over and built a "championship caliber defense" from scratch in three years.

Shula also routinely won nine or ten games a year and as a result, didn't get good spots in the draft.  Add to the fact that free agency didn't begin until Shula's later years and you can't really measure one against the other.  Those were two different era's.  Granted, Shula was a great coach but not a very good talent evaluator.

[BigDaddyFin]

Your analysis seems to skip directly from the powerhouse Dolphins of the '70s and early '80s directly to 1996. 

No it does not.  It begins from 1990, the point at which the Dolphins became a fairly regular playoff team again.  If I wanted to go that far, I would have started with the whole "Curse of David Overstreet Theory"

One of these things is not like the other...

Statistically the Defense's best years were 2000-2003.  Wanny would have been the head coach then, with JJ's players.

Wanny found the best one in the league!  So why doesn't Wanny get some credit for that?

He did. 

At a cost of two first round picks, two retirements and how many drug suspensions?  And Ricky was NEVER the same player after 2003 that he was before.

The Dolphins finished 3-11 in 1966 and 3-10-1 in 1969, so this statement is not accurate.

Fine.  The worst season in 25 years.  Post expansion era.  Recent history.  Sue me.  :p

The team that picked Drew Brees in that draft ended up picking another QB #1 overall three years later, because Brees sucked.  Then they let Brees walk for nothing.  I'm not sure how replicating that would have helped Wanny.

Brees has a Superbowl ring and the record for most passing yards in a season.  And even if you want to argue that Wanny passing on him wasn't a mistake, Saban passing on him in 2005 definately was.  Also with Brees on the roster, Wanny doesn't repeatedly try to replace Fiedler with Lucas, Griese and AJ Feeley and lose all the draft picks he traded away in those deals.

So based on this purported recommendation, JJ is more responsible for Saban's actions than Huizenga (who hired JJ, Wanny, AND Saban) or Saban himself?  How does that work?

Because I qualified that with the words "directly or indirectly responsible."  He's directly responsible for his own actions, but he had a hand in two other coaching flops hence the need for the word "indirectly."  He had a hand in the next two coaching hires.

It's ok if you disagree Spider, I still love you I promise.  But Johnson should be a lock for ROD.  I'm not wrong about this.

[Spider-Dan]

Saying that JJ or Wanny should be in the ROD is like saying that Fiedler should be in the ROD: it's a plausible argument circa 2004 (when the only thing to compare them to is Shula/Marino), but given the bums that have been in Miami since then, how can you continue to believe that?

Seriously, you've given an argument as to why you think JJ (and Wanny, who JJ is "responsible for") are worse than Shula, the winningest coach of all time.  Great.  Now please explain why JJ should be in the ROD ahead of Saban, Cameron, and Sparano.

[BigDaddyFin]

^^^

Ok Spider.

The main qualification for ROD is that the candidate has to be so inept as to hamstring the franchise at that position for many years. 

When you take into account all the things Jimmy Johnson screwed up or failed to do with all the hype he came to Miami with, and then add in the fact that he had a hand in the next two coaching hires who faired slightly better and far worse, you have to go with Jimmy Johnson.  You could argue that (discounting Philbin because he's only been there a year)  Miami has had a glaring hole at head coach since the departure of Don Shula.

[Sunstroke]

You could argue that...Miami has had a glaring hole at head coach since the departure of Don Shula. 

If you're calling it straight, you could argue that Miami has had a glaring hole at head coach since "a few years before" the departure of Shula...

(meaning he wasn't much like the old Shula once Shula got old)

[Spider-Dan]

I still don't see how you can look at a coach who won two playoff games and assembled a "championship-caliber" defensive roster, then look at a coach who never made the playoffs, bungled a #2 overall pick and the opportunity to sign a future HOF QB, and decide that the first guy was the downfall of the franchise.

JJ's players were contributing years after he left.  If anything, you should be mad at Wanny for not restocking the cupboard after JJ left, but still, at least Wanny made a move and won a playoff game.  Saban did nothing of value, period, and his abrupt, deceptive departure (along with his total incompetence at talent acquisition) left his successor with a roster capable of losing 13 games in a row.

That's like blaming Phil Jackson for why the Lakers suck this year.

[BigDaddyFin]

I still don't see how you can look at a coach who won two playoff games and assembled a "championship-caliber" defensive roster,
That's like blaming Phil Jackson for why the Lakers suck this year.

Because Jimmy Johnson was Jimmy Johnson's own downfall. 

Jimmy builds a championship caliber defense and yeah those guys were really good for a long time.  But look what he did to  the offense.

Running game/backs:
Jabbar was a flop after his rookie year pretty much. 
Denson was a kick returner not much else.
Cecil Collins and Lawrence Phillips ended up in prison.
JJ Johnson might have been alright as a second teamer or running behind a better line.
Cuts Kieth Byers which was probably a decent move at the time except it led to (see 1997)

Remember, his main objective was to turn the Dolphins into a team that could run the ball.  Yet we went through all these and a few more running backs.  And Johnson had total personnel control. 

Wide Receiver
Yatil Green (see ROD)
Troy Drayton was a serviceable player but outside of that what else was there at TE?
Fred Barnett hung on for awhile to his credit but wasn't the same player he was in Philadelphia
Charles Jordan.  Didn't last very long here did he?

The one guy they were smart enough to keep was Mr. First Down OJ McDuffie. 
Jimmy's only hit?  Oronde Gadsden.

Offensive Coaches: 
Fires Gary Stephens.  This can be argued as a mistake either way, but what can't be argued was:
Replaces Gary Stephens with Kippy Brown.  I never heard of Kippy Brown before he was our OC, I don't think I ever heard of him again. 

Remember, this was the guy who was going to throw away everything that was wrong with Shula and replace it with Superbowl appearances and we were going to be a dominant team again.

Instead we got:

1996: Missed playoffs
1997: 17-3 playoff loss to the Patriots in Foxboro
Blames Dan Marino for having run an offense too complicated.  As it turns out, Kieth Byers gave the Patriots all our Offensive audibles.  How does Jimmy fix it?  He fires Gary Stephens and replaces him with Kippy Brown.
1998: Defeats Buffalo 24-17 in the wild card round.  Gets routed in Denver 38-3 after defeating Denver in Miami earlier.
Retires for 24 hours, then Un-retires when Marino talks him out of it.
1999: Defeats Seattle in the wild card largely because Marino had one more comeback left in him.  Tenure mercifully ends the next week with one of the worst playoff losses in NFL history by any team ever with a Jacksonville 62-7 victory.

Shula the general manager was also Shula the Head Coach's worst enemy, and we saw the litany of mistakes he made in the draft as well.  But if you look at Shula's last 4 years, there were two division titles, a couple playoff wins an AFC championship game appearance and a bad playoff loss against Buffalo.  Shula's worst sins were keeping Tom Olivadotti and not having much of a running game.   

and to answer your other question, if I still haven't changed your mind that Johnson as a head coach wasn't an improvement over Shula, Shula didn't keep picking head coaches after we left. 

The guy who recommended the guy who bungled the #2 overall pick (Saban) to the owner of the team was Jimmy Johnson.
The guys who screwed up the opportunity to sign a future hall of fame QB were Johnson's hand picked successor (Wannstedt could have drafted him in 2001.  He was right there on the board) and the guy Johnson recommended to the owner to be the head coach of the team (Saban).

Look at the root of the problem.  It all goes back to the second they hired Jimmy Johnson as head coach.  If theypass on him, even if the guy who succeeds Shula is a flop, none of this shit probably ever happens. 

[Spider-Dan]

Remember, his main objective was to turn the Dolphins into a team that could run the ball.

Shula had over 10 years to get either a running game or a defense for Marino, and couldn't do either.  Remember, Shula's main objective was to win the Super Bowl, which he failed at for over 20 years in a row.

Remember, this was the guy who was going to throw away everything that was wrong with Shula and replace it with Superbowl appearances and we were going to be a dominant team again.

JJ unquestionably did one thing that had eluded Shula since the '70s: he built a top-tier defense.

Instead we got:

1996: Missed playoffs
1997: 17-3 playoff loss to the Patriots in Foxboro
1998: Defeats Buffalo 24-17 in the wild card round.  Gets routed in Denver 38-3 after defeating Denver in Miami earlier.
1999: Defeats Seattle in the wild card largely because Marino had one more comeback left in him.

Funny, because I see:

1996: first year on the job
1997: loses road playoff game to defending AFC champions
1998: loses road playoff game to heavily favored defending SB champion (one of the best teams of all time)
1999: first #6 seed in NFL history to win a playoff game (and the only #6 seed ever to win a playoff game during the 6 division era)

The guy who recommended the guy who bungled the #2 overall pick (Saban) to the owner of the team was Jimmy Johnson.

I find it rather curious that you seem to believe that JJ was directing Huizenga's actions in 2005.  If JJ still had so much control, why did his hand-picked successor (Wanny) get fired in the first place?

Furthermore, I am completely unable to find any sort of evidence linking JJ to Saban's hire.  The only thing I can find is this (emphasis added):

“The irritating thing that I have . . . see I don’t like the way he treats people that are working for a living,” NFL analyst Jimmy Johnson told 790-The Ticket. “I’m talking about some of the [media] that are working for $30,000 and $40,000 that are helping him be a star. Yet, he’s that way to them and he belittles those people. I don’t like that. So, that’s what turned me off on him right off the bat when he came to the Dolphins. I just didn’t like the way he dealt with people. . . He had a tough time dealing with the NFL.”

JJ didn't like him right off the bat?  Pretty strange statement from someone who you claim to be The Reason Saban Was Hired.

The guys who screwed up the opportunity to sign a future hall of fame QB were Johnson's hand picked successor (Wannstedt could have drafted him in 2001.  He was right there on the board) and the guy Johnson recommended to the owner to be the head coach of the team (Saban).

As I already pointed out, drafting Brees would not have accomplished anything, as he sucked when he was drafted and had to be replaced.  He didn't show improvement until year 4 (after his replacement had already been drafted), which was right when Saban would have had a chance to pick him up.  Instead, Saban passed on Brees and sent picks to MIN for Culpepper.

Remember, Saban was the guy that was not only going to bring his championship-winning-ways to the NFL, not only the guy who coached under The Great Hoodie in Cleveland, but the major advantage Saban was supposed to provide was his intimate knowledge of college players.  Miami was supposed to be a drafting powerhouse under Saban, which makes his utter failure at drafting all that more glaring.  In fact, he's the one person in the league who should have been able to anticipate Rodgers' breakout, because he was actually IN the NCAA coaching against teams that Rodgers was playing against!  The other ~20 coaches that passed on Rodgers were busy coaching in the NFL when Rodgers was playing in the NCAA... they at least have an alibi.

Your entire argument against JJ seems to rest on JJ somehow being responsible for the Saban era, moreso than Saban himself.  Huizenga is the one who fired Wanny and replaced Jim Bates with Nick Saban.  Nick Saban is the one who failed horribly at acquiring quality NFL talent.  JJ is not responsible for either of those things.

[BigDaddyFin]

“The irritating thing that I have . . . see I don’t like the way he treats people that are working for a living,” NFL analyst Jimmy Johnson told 790-The Ticket. “I’m talking about some of the [media] that are working for $30,000 and $40,000 that are helping him be a star. Yet, he’s that way to them and he belittles those people. I don’t like that. So, that’s what turned me off on him right off the bat when he came to the Dolphins. I just didn’t like the way he dealt with people. . . He had a tough time dealing with the NFL.”

JJ didn't like him right off the bat?  Pretty strange statement from someone who you claim to be The Reason Saban Was Hired.

That's hysterical that Jimmy would say that, because I've heard the exact same thing about Johnson. 

You fail to take into account that Jimmy Johnson is completely full of shit.  Always has been.

1996: first year on the job
1997: loses road playoff game to defending AFC champions
1998: loses road playoff game to heavily favored defending SB champion (one of the best teams of all time)
1999: first #6 seed in NFL history to win a playoff game (and the only #6 seed ever to win a playoff game during the 6 division era)

So embarrassing (not just bad) losses are ok as long as it's to a team you approve of?  I don't see why you would try to justify those losses as anything other than historically embarrassing.

Furthermore, I am completely unable to find any sort of evidence linking JJ to Saban's hire. 

Your entire argument against JJ seems to rest on JJ somehow being responsible for the Saban era, moreso than Saban himself.  Huizenga is the one who fired Wanny and replaced Jim Bates with Nick Saban.  Nick Saban is the one who failed horribly at acquiring quality NFL talent.  JJ is not responsible for either of those things.

He is if he recommends a guy to the owner, and the guy turns out to be a complete disaster.

Are you searching print or video? It was reported on CBS sports pregame show as well as ESPN and NFL network.

Here's another one from the Sun-Sent Feb 2, 2005.

J.j. Lobbied For Owner To Bring In Saban
February 2, 2005|By Ethan J. Skolnick Staff Writer

JACKSONVILLE — Jimmy Johnson, who essentially chose his successor as coach of the Dolphins six years ago, said Tuesday that he encouraged the organization to bring in Nick Saban.

"I think it was a great hire," Johnson said at Tuesday's media availability for Fox's Super Bowl broadcast team. "[Owner H. Wayne Huizenga] stepped to the plate and he did what he had to do. I think the Dolphins were in a crossroads right there. It was such a disastrous year. They had been a winner for so long -- hadn't had a losing season since [1988] and all of a sudden they have a disastrous one -- Wayne stepped up and said, `OK, I'm going to get the best available.'"

 

[Spider-Dan]

Again, I still don't understand how JJ is more responsible for the Saban era than Wayne Huizenga or Nick Saban.  The Saban era was the moment the Dolphins stopped being competitive.

[BigDaddyFin]

smh...

because he had a hand in the hiring and the end result was a disaster.   He hamstrung the franchise for years at the head coach AND general manager position.  Dismiss it if you want, but I'm right about this.

[Spider-Dan]

You know who had a bigger hand in the hiring than JJ?  Wayne Huizenga.
You know who had a bigger hand in the disaster than JJ?  Nick Saban.

If you want to put Wanny's hiring on JJ, fine.  But Huizenga fired JJ's guy to hire Saban.  He obviously wasn't putting that much stock in JJ's opinion at that point.

I am also forced to wonder:  do you also blame Shula for Cameron?