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Author Topic: Race relations/affirmative action  (Read 32492 times)
el diablo
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 07:08:44 pm »

Pretty much anything that comes out of Spike Lee's mouth or any cause Jesse or Al are making money off of is insulting to white people. If Jack Nicholson spoke like Spike Lee in reverse or did the things he did then he would have been hanged by now. I'm speaking metaphorically but literally probably isn't too far off.

Are you saying that somehow "Do the Right Thing" is insulting to white people?
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EDGECRUSHER
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 07:30:51 pm »

Spike Lee proudly admits to not liking interracial couples and giving them the evil eye when he sees one.

All class and tolerance that guy.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 01:59:37 am »

I no longer support affirmative action.  If you asked me on Nov.  3, 2008 if I supported AA I would have not hesitated to have said yes.  But on Nov 5th, only 2 days, later I supported repealing every single program that gives a preference based on race.  

This wasn't based on being bothered by what happened on Nov 4, in fact I was thrilled with what happened on Nov 4.  

In case you are wondering what caused this radical shift in opinion, here is what happened on Nov 4th:  The vast majority of Americans decided to elect the person best suited to lead this nation without regard to the color of the skin of people running for office.
I feel that this is like saying, "Allen Iverson was MVP of the NBA and he's 5'11", therefore height is no longer an advantage in the NBA."

It is difficult for me to accept the idea that the playing field has been leveled when (for example) whites and blacks use marijuana at roughly the same rate, yet blacks are arrested for marijuana far more often.  While I generally do favor assistance based on socioeconomic status over race, I do not agree that the (re-)election of a one individual proves that racism is largely defeated.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2014, 11:16:56 am »

I think that Hoodie's position on AA is not exactly mine, but is in the same direction.  I don't support AA.  I think it's lived its usefulness, but now things are close enough that AA will cause more division and harm than good by driving a wedge.  I think the wind is blowing this direction and most people, even liberals, want to see AA gone.
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RichThrawn
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2014, 11:45:47 am »

I think that Hoodie's position on AA is not exactly mine, but is in the same direction.  I don't support AA.  I think it's lived its usefulness, but now things are close enough that AA will cause more division and harm than good by driving a wedge.  I think the wind is blowing this direction and most people, even liberals, want to see AA gone.

AA meant well.  But with or without it, there would always be a qualified candidate who would be left out in the cold.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2014, 01:40:48 pm »

I feel that this is like saying, "Allen Iverson was MVP of the NBA and he's 5'11", therefore height is no longer an advantage in the NBA."

I don't claim racism doesn't exist, nor would I claim that height is not an advantage in basketball.  If I was to make the claim, "NBA teams are biased they won't sign the best basketball player only the tallest" Than Iverson is a great counter example to disprove that. 

Fact: Tall people are more prone to have the skills to be a great basketball player than short people. That doesn't mean that someone less than 6 feet tall will never be considered a first round draft talent in the NBA. But it does mean that more 6 feet tall people will be draft in the first round than people less than 6 feet.   

Fact: White people are more prone to have the skills necessary to competently perform high paying jobs than black people.  That doesn't mean that blacks can't get good paying jobs that they are qualified for, but it does mean that on avg, they are going to make less money.

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It is difficult for me to accept the idea that the playing field has been leveled when (for example) whites and blacks use marijuana at roughly the same rate, yet blacks are arrested for marijuana far more often


Based on personal experiences, I don't doubt your stats.  But I don't agree with the conclusion.

My personal experiences: 

1) While I don't smoke pot, I have friends who do.  They are white.  The smoke in the basement of their home or deep in the woods.   

2) I frequently walk in the local city park.  Occasionally I will see white people smoking
in the woods when hiking on the trails.  I have NEVER seen a white person smoking pot at the picnic tables, ball fields or near the playground at the park.  I frequently see blacks smoking in such public areas.  And sometimes I see them get arrested.  I have never seen a cop on the hiking trails. 

3) Last week I saw a black man get arrested for smoking pot.  It was a weekend afternoon, he was on the park bench next to the playground that had about 30 children playing. 

4) At an outdoor free music concert I saw the same two cops bust four different groups for smoking pot.  The cops were both black.

group A - a group of blacks.  When the cops approached the smokers were respectful the smokers turn over their pot without incident, the cop ran their licences and let them off with a warning.

group B - a group of whites.  Exact same outcome as group A

group C - single black.  When the cop told him to put out the joint, he responded "fuck you, you pig."  He was arrested.

group D - one white, one black. They also were respectful.  When the cops ran the ids the black showed up as having an open a warrant.  He was arrested; the white who did not have an open warrant was given a warning. 

So I don't doubt the data that more blacks get arrested than whites for smoking pot.  However the conclusion I have drawn is the following: 

1) You are less likely to get arrested if you smoke where you are unlikely to encounter cops than if you smoke in the areas the cops patrol.

2) You are less likely to get arrested if you are polite to a cop, cooperate and call him "Sir" than if you call him a "pig"

3) Most white potheads have figured out the above; while many black potheads haven't or don't care.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2014, 02:32:53 pm »

  Or maybe an advertisement saying that The Jew is undermining our society and that the nations of the world should pass laws providing for their extermination.

Do you still support his right to speak his mind without losing his franchise license?


Bad example.  But let me give you a comparative personal example. 

Do I feel that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences should force Mel Gibson to sell Icon Productions and if he refuses to do than make any film produced by Icon  ineligible to be nominated for an Oscar? 

No, I don't.  While I personally will not see a movie staring Gibson or one he directs, forcing him sell his production house or be banned from having any movie produced not be recognized by the award monopoly would be an overreach.   

I feel that Swift's unilateral action without any benefit of due process because he was personally offended by Sterling's comments is a gross misjustice. 
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2014, 02:52:01 pm »


There is only so much you can chalk up to poor attitude.  (And I humbly submit that if you were regularly harassed by the police when you had done nothing wrong, your attitude towards them might be much less positive.  Hell, in NY, kids are required to carry ID when in their own apartment building or risk being arrested.)

When the police regularly go into low-income neighborhoods (which is frequently synonymous with "minority neighborhoods") to sweep for drugs, where are the corresponding sweeps in upper-class neighborhoods?  Why aren't they stopping and frisking bankers or stock traders?  And what part of any of this changed solely because Obama was elected?

Like I said, socioeconomic status is a big part of it, but the policies create a cycle where kids in white neighborhoods are not stopped, not frisked, and do not accumulate prior offenses.  Kids in poor minority neighborhoods are stopped all the time, so two kids in two different neighborhoods with exactly the same illegal behavior wind up with vastly different records.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2014, 02:56:58 pm »

Bad example.  But let me give you a comparative personal example. 

Do I feel that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences should force Mel Gibson to sell Icon Productions and if he refuses to do than make any film produced by Icon  ineligible to be nominated for an Oscar?
Has Icon Productions agreed to a business contract with the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences?  If not, then the situation is not analogous.

Furthermore, can you conceive of any statement for which the Academy would be justified in disqualifying an entity from receiving awards?  If so, then you are not really concerned with protecting free speech as much as you are dismissing the severity of Sterling's statement.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2014, 03:03:18 pm »


There is only so much you can chalk up to poor attitude

Your right.  Much of it can be attributed to the fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites.  Or least did last time we kept the stats on that.  For some reason it has been determined that reporting of the race of criminals is racist.  

And much can be attributed to stupidity of the criminals.

Does drug use occur in the wealthy areas?  Yes.  Does street corner dealing?  No.  

Cops can drive around my neighborhood all day long they aren't going to catch anyone doing drugs inside their own home.  But every time I drive downtown I see folks dealing in the open.  Pretty easy to make bust.  

And what are we going to stop and frisk a stockbroker for? You aren't going to find evidence of stock fraud that way.  But if you see people casing a liquor store it is good police work to determine if they are armed.  
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2014, 03:09:12 pm »

Has Icon Productions agreed to a business contract with the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences?  If not, then the situation is not analogous.

Furthermore, can you conceive of any statement for which the Academy would be justified in disqualifying an entity from receiving awards?  If so, then you are not really concerned with protecting free speech as much as you are dismissing the severity of Sterling's statement.

I can't think of any statement that ought justify banning awards nor justify ending a basketball owner for losing a team.

The Colts owner (NFL) has done something criminal as opposed to something that is offensive -- that I can see justifying this type of action.  But alas it hasn't.

Also Gibson is an interesting case.  His antisemitic rant didn't end his Hollywood career.  But his subsequent use of the N-word did.  How is it that one is forgivable and the other isn't?   
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2014, 03:40:06 pm »

Your right.  Much of it can be attributed to the fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites.
...except that this very discussion shows that while whites admit to using illegal drugs at the same rate (or even higher) than blacks, blacks are arrested far more often.  Your explanation for this is that the black people have poor attitudes and are using drugs in the open?  What would that have to do with stopping someone, frisking them, and finding concealed drugs on their person?

It is impossible to separate convictions from enforcement.  When two groups of people openly admit to committing the same crime at the same rate, and yet the police systematically target one group over the other, saying that one of them "commits more crime" is a circular argument.

Quote
Does drug use occur in the wealthy areas?  Yes.  Does street corner dealing?  No.
You realize that drug dealing and drug possession are two different crimes, right?  Are you claiming that the huge difference in arrest rates are all dealers?

Quote
And what are we going to stop and frisk a stockbroker for?
Illegal drugs?  I mean, that's exactly the point: when you arbitrarily stop and frisk one group of people (but not another), of course you will catch more of the former hiding illegal drugs.

When just 6% of your 4.4 million stops result in arrests, it's obvious that you are just stopping people with no reason.  When you cite stopping violent crime as the justification for these searches, and only 1.5% of your frisks find weapons, you're clearly just fishing.  And when black suspects are found to possess a gun half as often as white suspects, and found to possess drugs 1/3 less than white suspects, the purported impartiality of these stops is exposed as fraudulent.

And while I'm happy to discuss all of these things in more detail, it is your position that the singular event of the election of Barack Obama instantly made these things non-factors.  In other words, if Hillary Clinton beats Obama in the Democratic primary, then minorities still face an uphill battle in America and need the extra assistance they can get, but since that didn't happen, minorities across the republic now have a level playing field?
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Phishfan
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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2014, 03:49:03 pm »


And what are we going to stop and frisk a stockbroker for?

They do have a pretty good reputation for carrying some white powdery substance. I'd say the suspicion should be just the same.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2014, 03:52:51 pm »

I can't think of any statement that ought justify banning awards nor justify ending a basketball owner for losing a team.
So wait... is it your position that private organizations must not consider any outside factors when issuing awards?  Well, not exactly... you said could see Irsay losing his team for criminal actions (that were totally unrelated to his business).  But NBA owners taking action against Sterling (who made statements that had a significant and tangible impact on the NBA's ability to do business) is crossing the line?

Quote
Also Gibson is an interesting case.  His antisemitic rant didn't end his Hollywood career.  But his subsequent use of the N-word did.  How is it that one is forgivable and the other isn't?
So when did Gibson's career "end" in this timeline?  He's been in a new movie every year since 2010.
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pondwater
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2014, 05:45:12 am »

Again, wrong.  I can take a picture (or video) of this person and post it on Twitter, Facebook, etc.  Social pressure can be applied, to both him personally and his employer (or business partners).
This has go to be a joke. There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

So in your opinion it's OK to bash the majority because they have the upper hand.
Yes, absolutely.  If you wanted to talk to me about the oppression of white Christians in, say, China, I'm totally receptive.  In America?  Not so much.
I'll assume that this statement means that you think it's perfectly OK to have an all black basketball league and other assorted all black groups. And also think that it's OK for various famous black people to say things that would cause a Caucasian person to be labeled a racist.

Racism, slavery, and rape were readily accepted customs of that era. They are not today.
Take a look at the current state of affairs in Africa and then tell us how slavery and rape aren't accepted customs.
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