racism is bad, censorship is worse

[pondwater]

On the first...not enough information to make that claim, but enough behavioral psych credits to consider it a distinct possibility. On the second...obviously, as you've stated as much.

You spend enough time twisting things that I doubt that you really want to get anything straight. As for racism, I find all aspects of it to be unacceptable in a modern society.

Nothing is being twisted. I asked you a simple straight forward question. In the United States is it a persons right to have racist views and opinions and express those opinions? Yes or no?

[Spider-Dan]

It seems to me that you care what the sissified politically correct media talks about. Why do you feel the need to have their approval? Why does it matter to you what they think of "racists"? Once you value yourself, you will cease to care what people think or say about you. Maybe you'll "get it" one day, maybe not.

[pondwater]

It seems to me that you care what the sissified politically correct media talks about.

Grasp this if you can. The racists and bigots of the world are going to say and do what they want. There is nothing that is going to stop them. The media only does it for ratings(ie money). They perpetuate and draw attention to these things which in the end makes the problem worse. I mean really, we all know racists and bigots exist. Does it need to be plastered on tv, newspapers, and the internet 24/7?

Why do you feel the need to have their approval? Why does it matter to you what they think of "racists"? Once you value yourself, you will cease to care what people think or say about you. Maybe you'll "get it" one day, maybe not.

The media isn't saying anything about me so that's a moot point. However, the frat guy was saying something about YOU. So lets not change the subject. Why do you care what the frat guy says? Why does he have so much power over your emotions? Don't you have better things to do than worry about what a drunken skinny white guy thinks about you?

[Spider-Dan]

Why do you care what is plastered on TV?  If you don't like it, just ignore it.
Why do you allow the media to have so much power over your emotions?
Don't you have better things to do than worry about the hand-wringing of sissified liberals?

Criticizing the criticism is easy, because it's lazy.

[pondwater]

Why do you care what is plastered on TV?  If you don't like it, just ignore it.
Why do you allow the media to have so much power over your emotions?
Don't you have better things to do than worry about the hand-wringing of sissified liberals?

You might not have noticed, but I'm in a discussion thread giving my opinion of the topic. I'm not telling anyone who will listen and broadcasting it across the country. But I guess that you can't tell the difference.

Criticizing the criticism is easy, because it's lazy.

I would counter that answering questions with questions is lazy. But what's the point? Round and round you go. You bore me.

[ArtieChokePhin]

While I find the chant at OU just as offensive as the Nazi march thru Skokie Illinois,  both ought be protected by the 1st amendment.   

When you infringe on someone else's rights, your first ammendment rights no longer apply.

[Spider-Dan]

You might not have noticed, but I'm in a discussion thread giving my opinion of the topic. I'm not telling anyone who will listen and broadcasting it across the country. But I guess that you can't tell the difference.

Why does the difference matter?  The Constitution protects private free speech too.

Since I think the point has been made well enough, let's talk about the real issue.  The issue is not what I think racists think about me; you'll notice that I haven't even bothered weighing in on what I think of the frat members themselves.  Their actions speak for themselves.  What I have weighed in on is my opinion of:

- whether the university has the right to ban the frat
- whether the university has the right to expel the students
- the people who claim that "racism was proven over in America" on November 4, 2008
- the people who are perfectly happy to shut down the free speech of those criticizing racists, but insist that we must silently ignore the speech of racists

You fall firmly into the last camp.  And your erstwhile position as Champion of Free Speech is utter BS; you are simply defending a position that... well, to put it charitably, you don't find very offensive.  However, you have no problem whatsoever stifling Free Speech when it's coming from a position you don't agree with; any person who ever criticizes political correctness is necessarily opposing the free speech of PC proponents.

[Spider-Dan]

And because this needs to be said:

Hoodie, I find it incredibly brazen of you to post this thread defending fraternity brothers from the repercussions of open racism.  I seem to recall you declaring that when Obama was elected, that singular act proved that racism had been diminished to the point where affirmative action (e.g. minorities getting preferential admissions to universities) should be dismantled and that the Civil Rights Act can now be repealed.

I guess "you can hang them from a tree, but they will never sign with me" must be a post-1970s lyric, crafted in response to the frustration caused by affirmative action policies?  And that fraternities openly chanting about how they won't admit blacks is surely no commentary on the difficulties minorities experience at college?

[Dave Gray]

These things do change racism, though.  When these things are socially unacceptable, it enacts slow change.  There will always be racists.  But there will be less blatant racism if there are social consequences for it.

America still has its share of racism, but it's better than it was in the 60s.  You'd be hard pressed to find people that things blacks shouldn't be able to drink out of the same water-fountain as whites.

Condemn bigotry and there'll be less of it.

[Sunstroke]

These things do change racism, though.  When these things are socially unacceptable, it enacts slow change.  There will always be racists.  But there will be less blatant racism if there are social consequences for it.

America still has its share of racism, but it's better than it was in the 60s.  You'd be hard pressed to find people that things blacks shouldn't be able to drink out of the same water-fountain as whites.

Condemn bigotry and there'll be less of it.

This is exactly what I meant when I said:

Of course there is something that people can do about it. You (pondwater) stand as a prime example. 50-60 years ago, there was a much higher percentage of the population who believed that this sort of blatant racism was acceptable. These days, the number of people like you (pondwater) have been drastically reduced. Who knows, in another 50-60 years, there might not be any racist antisocial nutjobs left at all...

In short, free speech may not actually be free, but ignorance is far more expensive for us as a species.

[Rich]

Their right to free speech has not been infringed upon. They haven't been thrown in jail for it.

That's where the discussion ends.

[bsmooth]

The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that all speech is not protected under the First Amendment. There are types of speech that are not protected.
The reason that this was on the news, is that it was news. Just because you may not think it is significant, does not mean it should not be reported.

[Buddhagirl]

I thought all large state universities had a code of conduct. Hate speech would be in direct violation of that. I see no issue with these douchebags being suspended. People get kicked out of university for far less than chanting about hanging their fellow students from trees.

We actually had an issue the other day at my job. Some guy brings in his daughter wearing his full neo nazi clothing for the Magic tournament. (I have a weird life.) Anyway, many others found him completely offensive and the manager had to ask him to cover it up or please leave. He opted to leave and said he will be filing a complaint or something. Seeing that homeboy had no teeth and barely could talk we're not overly worried. And the store reserves the right to refuse service to anyone.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that all speech is not protected under the First Amendment. There are types of speech that are not protected.

correct not all speach is protected.  For example slander is not protected, fraud is not protected, threats are not protected, yelling fire in theater is not protected.

However  ethnic slurs are protected.

[DenverFinFan]

Their right to free speech has not been infringed upon. They haven't been thrown in jail for it.

That's where the discussion ends.

That's 100%. You can get kicked out of school for lots of things that might be legal. If I went to work and started making slurs, I'd be fired but not thrown in prison, and my free speech would not be violated. This whole discussion is ridiculous and I'm glad they got expelled.