It's official: Hillary vs. Trump

[Spider-Dan]

So after many months of topsy-turvy intrigue, it is finally official:  the major party candidates for the 2016 Presidential election are Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.  As of right now (post-GOP convention, mid-Dem convention), the polls are within 2 points.

I have seen it said that this election represents one of the starkest choices between candidates in the history of the republic, behind only 1864 and 1932.  I would agree with that assessment; I think the two paths the country can take from here are wildly divergent.

[Spider-Dan]

Now, for my own thoughts on the election:

I would say I have been a bit surprised at the lack of commentary here over this election, especially compared to previous cycles.  I think a win for Hillary is essentially the electorate asking for a third Obama term, or a maybe third Bill Clinton term... I could be convinced of either.  I think most people would agree that Hillary represents the status quo; I think progressives will believe she represents the same slow center-left crawl that Obama has given us, and I think conservatives will believe she represents the same radical leftward sprint that Obama has given us.

As for Trump: I don't really know where to begin.  It's one thing to talk about terrible political policies; I thought Romney's policies were terrible, and I think Ted Cruz would do an incredible amount of damage to the country.  In fact, I'd be more worried about President Cruz's policies than I would be about President Trump's.

But Trump represents a wholly unique kind of threat to our democracy, and the world as a whole.  Cruz isn't going to tell our NATO allies, "Nice country you have there... sure would be a shame if Russia invaded it."  Romney wouldn't have promised to kill the innocent families of terrorists, bring back waterboarding "and a lot worse," and insisted that his generals would carry out his illegal orders.  Normal Republicans insist that waterboarding isn't torture... Trump explicitly states that he will torture captives, and simply doesn't care if it's a war crime.  Trump praises Putin for having political opponents and critical journalists killed, and says, "At least he's a leader."  Trump tells supporters at his rallies to physically attack protesters and promises to pay their legal fees.

I am aware of Godwin's Law.  This is one of the situations in which it simply does not apply.  We have in front of us a candidate who promises to ban everyone of a specific religion from entering the country, who insists that an Indiana-born judge is incapable of fairly adjudicating his trial solely because of his race, who refuses to denounce a KKK Grand Wizard that endorses him, who openly encourages violence among his supporters and praises a foreign dictator that has had journalists killed.  We are faced with the same kind of decision that Germans had to make in the early 1930s, Godwin's Law be damned.

Many people have asked themselves how Germany could possibly let the Nazis come to power.  Americans won't be asking that question any more.  We have a choice to make, and history will not be kind to us if we are the electorate that puts Trump in power.

[Tenshot13]

Now, for my own thoughts on the election:

I would say I have been a bit surprised at the lack of commentary here over this election, especially compared to previous cycles.  I think a win for Hillary is essentially the electorate asking for a third Obama term, or a maybe third Bill Clinton term... I could be convinced of either.  I think most people would agree that Hillary represents the status quo; I think progressives will believe she represents the same slow center-left crawl that Obama has given us, and I think conservatives will believe she represents the same radical leftward sprint that Obama has given us.

As for Trump: I don't really know where to begin.  It's one thing to talk about terrible political policies; I thought Romney's policies were terrible, and I think Ted Cruz would do an incredible amount of damage to the country.  In fact, I'd be more worried about President Cruz's policies than I would be about President Trump's.

But Trump represents a wholly unique kind of threat to our democracy, and the world as a whole.  Cruz isn't going to tell our NATO allies, "Nice country you have there... sure would be a shame if Russia invaded it."  Romney wouldn't have promised to kill the innocent families of terrorists, bring back waterboarding "and a lot worse," and insisted that his generals would carry out his illegal orders.  Normal Republicans insist that waterboarding isn't torture... Trump explicitly states that he will torture captives, and simply doesn't care if it's a war crime.  Trump praises Putin for having political opponents and critical journalists killed, and says, "At least he's a leader."  Trump tells supporters at his rallies to physically attack protesters and promises to pay their legal fees.

I am aware of Godwin's Law.  This is one of the situations in which it simply does not apply.  We have in front of us a candidate who promises to ban everyone of a specific religion from entering the country, who insists that an Indiana-born judge is incapable of fairly adjudicating his trial solely because of his race, who refuses to denounce a KKK Grand Wizard that endorses him, who openly encourages violence among his supporters and praises a foreign dictator that has had journalists killed.  We are faced with the same kind of decision that Germans had to make in the early 1930s, Godwin's Law be damned.

Many people have asked themselves how Germany could possibly let the Nazis come to power.  Americans won't be asking that question any more.  We have a choice to make, and history will not be kind to us if we are the electorate that puts Trump in power.

There is enough for you to criticize Trump about without comparing him to the Nazis.  That's ludicrous.

[Fau Teixeira]

There is enough for you to criticize Trump about without comparing him to the Nazis.  That's ludicrous.

Because of his strong arm dictatorial speeches, his inciting his followers to violence, his overt racism, his scapegoating of entire groups of people, his ultra nationalistic message and his populist appeals. I wouldn't call it ludicrous.

The problem with Goodwin's law is that you assume the reference is to 1945 Hitler. Which wouldn't be appropriate. There's no Auschwitz to point to.
But in this case i think a comparison to 1933 Hitler is more than appropriate, it's terrifying.

[Phishfan]

I would say I have been a bit surprised at the lack of commentary here over this election, especially compared to previous cycles. 

Not me. I think we have all tired of the name calling and redirection of topics in the middle of "discussion". We have all been here long enough and know who is likely voting for who based on past threads. If we want to be civil, I'm cool with talking about the election but I have purposely stayed off the topic because I know how it usually ends.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Not a huge fan of either.  Feel the Burn.  But Trump scares me for the reasons Spider outlined.  While our constitution and checks and balance system would prevent Trump from building the wall, deporting all Muslims, remove Hispanic judges, killing Terrorist's families etc, his rhetoric would undoubtedly lead us to domestic riots and war.      

[Tenshot13]

Not a huge fan of either.  Feel the Burn.  But Trump scares me for the reasons Spider outlined.  While our constitution and checks and balance system would prevent Trump from building the wall, deporting all Muslims, remove Hispanic judges, killing Terrorist's families etc, his rhetoric would undoubtedly lead us to domestic riots and war.      

Our country already has riots and war.  Do you mean more of that?

[CF DolFan]

Not me. I think we have all tired of the name calling and redirection of topics in the middle of "discussion". We have all been here long enough and know who is likely voting for who based on past threads. If we want to be civil, I'm cool with talking about the election but I have purposely stayed off the topic because I know how it usually ends.

Ditto. I'm not as Trump fan but he's facing one of the most crooked and dishonorable people to have ever held office so he doesn't have to look too good to most people to get elected.

I'm a Rubio supporter but the country isn't looking for a stereotypical Republican ... even the Republicans. people are sick of political correctness after having it shoved down our throats for so long.  Trump says some dumb things but most of the rhetoric coming out is simply propaganda from the left. they love to only use part of what he says to make him look evil. He's never said to ban all Muslims just Muslims from countries where known terrorist ties come from and only to a point where we can successfully vet them. Propaganda calls it an attack on religion when everyone knows in many countries religion and nationality go hand and hand.

It's really funny how he's never been called a racist or a misogynist until he ran against the Democratic party. In fact those same people called him friend right up until now. Sharpton even said Trump was secretly a Democrat when this all began ... LOL.

[Phishfan]

He's never said to ban all Muslims

Incorrect. He certainly said all Muslims.

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

[Fau Teixeira]

I only started calling him a racist when he started saying racist things.

[Sunstroke]

Trump is the most terrifying presidential candidate I've seen in my 52 years of sucking air...and I don't think comparing him to a pre-war Adolph Hitler is too much of a stretch at all.

Hillary may be corrupt, but most politicians are, to a certain extent. Trump is not only corrupt, he's psychotic and ignorant, and that is a trifecta I never want to see in the white house.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Our country already has riots and war.  Do you mean more of that?

I mean Kristallnacht style riots against minorities and full blown wars in multiple counties. 

[Spider-Dan]

While our constitution and checks and balance system would prevent Trump from building the wall, deporting all Muslims, remove Hispanic judges, killing Terrorist's families etc, his rhetoric would undoubtedly lead us to domestic riots and war.

I'm not convinced that checks and balances would work if the commander-in-chief of the military decides to ignore them.

When a fascist dictator seizes power in a democracy, he doesn't start out by saying that he is going to, say, burn down the parliament.  That kind of thing comes later.  But Trump is already talking about the actions he is going to take against critical journalists, and he's already insisted that his generals will definitely carry out his commands, even if they are illegal.

Again, this is important: establishment Republican policy on waterboarding so far has been that it is not torture and, therefore, is not an illegal war crime.  Trump is directly saying that he will implement "torture" (i.e. he uses that exact word) and, when reminded that torture is illegal under international law, dismisses those concerns.  When you are talking about a prospective leader that doesn't even care for the pretense that his proposed actions are legal, hyperbole is inapplicable.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

It's really funny how he's never been called a racist or a misogynist until he ran against the Democratic party.

He has been a race baiting bither for almost a decade now.

But in this case i think a comparison to 1933 Hitler is more than appropriate, it's terrifying.

Of course.  The comparison must be made to Hitler's rise to power.  Not what was done afterwards.

Trump is the most terrifying presidential candidate I've seen in my 52 years of sucking air...and I don't think comparing him to a pre-war Adolph Hitler is too much of a stretch at all.

Hillary may be corrupt, but most politicians are, to a certain extent. Trump is not only corrupt, he's psychotic and ignorant, and that is a trifecta I never want to see in the white house.

The republican smear campaign has been working overtime on Clinton for decades.  Millions of dollars spent on an overzealous independent council to find out Bill likes blowjobs.  Three secretary of states had private email servers -- only Clinton's matter.  More investigations into one terrorist attack in Libya than into 9/11 and  the 13 embassy attacks costing 60 lives under Bush combined.  

It is payback of her being a staffer in the Watergate investigation.      

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

My prediction wild prediction....the next president of the US will be Gary Johnson.

Clinton get a plurality of the popular vote and plurality of electoral college. 

Trump comes in second.

Johnson comes in a distant third.

House barely remains republican.  221-214.  However of the 221 Republicans, seventeen of them have either endorsed Johnson or endorsed nobody. 

The Dems know Hillary can't win in the house.  The democrats join with the never Trump republicans and the on the second ballot Johnson secures 219 votes.