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Author Topic: Presidential hierarchy amid treason  (Read 1299 times)
Dave Gray
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« on: April 03, 2017, 02:52:12 pm »

While Trump certainly got me thinking about this topic, it isn't specifically about him, so I'm hoping I can cut through the partisan part.

Let's say that a 3rd party has a fast rise to power and it turns out that the president is elected, but it's uncovered that they got there through foreign involvement and they are kicked out of office due to treason.  To really drive the point home, let's say it was a deplorable party like the KKK or Nazis or Communist party or whatever.

Let's say that the VP had no involvement in the treason and appears clean, but is a card-carrying member of the party of the president.

Would the VP then be president if they were appointed by someone who was illegitimate? How would the constitution view this?
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Phishfan
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 03:15:20 pm »

I'll admit this is personal opinion and not based on any possible case law (although I'm not even sure case law is the right term as there is no history of this).

Since the VP was on the elected ticket, I don't think he should rise to power. If the election is ruled as tainted both parties on the ticket need to be held responsible.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 03:43:54 pm »

Yes, the VP would be president.  Although the VP could be impeached as well.  If both were impeached the Speaker of the house would become president.

Even if it was determined to absolute certainty that the vote counts were manipulated and Clinton got more votes than Trump in Florida and Pennsylvania, Pence not Clinton would become president.  If Pence was in on it than Ryan becomes president.

Also any laws he signed into office would remain law unless repealed. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 03:45:37 pm by MyGodWearsAHoodie » Logged

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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 04:04:43 pm »

I'll admit this is personal opinion and not based on any possible case law (although I'm not even sure case law is the right term as there is no history of this).

Since the VP was on the elected ticket, I don't think he should rise to power. If the election is ruled as tainted both parties on the ticket need to be held responsible.

I agree that they should go, but the constitution doesn't provide for that.  As for precedent, when Nixon resigned to avoid being impeached for tampering with the 72 election, nobody put forth any sort of motion in place to replace Ford with McGovern. 
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Phishfan
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 04:21:52 pm »

I agree that they should go, but the constitution doesn't provide for that.  As for precedent, when Nixon resigned to avoid being impeached for tampering with the 72 election, nobody put forth any sort of motion in place to replace Ford with McGovern. 

You should bone up on this a little more. Ford was not on the ticket as Spiro Agnew was Nixon's first VP and was still on the 1972 ticket before resigning for unrelated legal issues in 1973. I don't think you can cite this as existing case law.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 04:42:09 pm »

You should bone up on this a little more. Ford was not on the ticket as Spiro Agnew was Nixon's first VP and was still on the 1972 ticket before resigning for unrelated legal issues in 1973. I don't think you can cite this as existing case law.

I am aware that Ford was only the second person become president without running on the national ticket.  And it is weak case law.  But the plain language of the constitution is very clear.

However if there is enough will in congress to impeach both the President and VP there would likely be enough will in congress to modify the presidential succession act.  Getting there would require conclusive proof of Trump being behind the hacking followed by massive backlash at republicans in the 2018 election. 
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Phishfan
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 07:17:24 pm »

But the plain language of the constitution is very clear.

However if there is enough will in congress to impeach both the President and VP there would likely be enough will in congress to modify the presidential succession act.  Getting there would require conclusive proof of Trump being behind the hacking followed by massive backlash at republicans in the 2018 election. 

I have never suggested anything about Presidential succession so that is a straw man argument against me.

Given that, I would support the idea of a special election but haven't suggested anything other than both offices on the ticket should be removed.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 08:00:57 pm »

I think you guys are overcomplicating this.

If both candidates on the ticket were considered compromised, you would simply impeach the President, then the Vice President after his promotion to President.  At that point, the Speaker of the House would become President.  (And if the Speaker was somehow also compromised, you could impeach him too.)

Congress can just keep impeaching new replacements until they arrive at an agreeable one.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 08:02:56 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 08:16:31 pm »

I think you guys are overcomplicating this.

If both candidates on the ticket were considered compromised, you would simply impeach the President, then the Vice President after his promotion to President.  At that point, the Speaker of the House would become President.  (And if the Speaker was somehow also compromised, you could impeach him too.)

Congress can just keep impeaching new replacements until they arrive at an agreeable one.

Congress could pass a law changing the order from VP then SoH to VP then runner up in last election, wait 10 days, override the presidents veto, then impeach the president and VP.
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masterfins
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 10:27:34 pm »

Congress could pass a law changing the order from VP then SoH to VP then runner up in last election, wait 10 days, override the presidents veto, then impeach the president and VP.

Wouldn't you need an Amendment to the Constitution to change the Presidential Succession rules?  I don't think a simple vote and override would do it.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 11:47:28 pm »

The Constitution only defines that the first successor to Pres is VP.  The line of succession after that is defined by normal statute, so you can change around the order as needed.

In other words, you would need a Constitutional amendment to put anyone ahead of VP, but you can pretty much put whoever you want after VP with a normal law.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2017, 10:00:22 am »

I think you guys are overcomplicating this.

If both candidates on the ticket were considered compromised, you would simply impeach the President, then the Vice President after his promotion to President. 

Not at all. I made a very simple statement on removing both from office. You over complicated it by promoting the VP and then impeaching him. A VP can also be impeached. If both are compromised, remove them both from office. That is about as simple as it gets.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2017, 10:15:28 am »

I'm assuming that the VP doesn't have his hands dirty, but is still a member of the Nazi party, not reflective of the will of the electorate.

I guess there's not much you could do except handcuff his powers.
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