Men taking over Women's sports

[Phishfan]

This may be a bit off topic, but I don't think it deserves to be split off to a new one. I myself do not understand transgendersim. I have no idea how you feel your gender and maybe that is because I don't have whatever it is inside of me that transgender people do. I don't think I've ever consciously thought about what it feels like to be a male. I just am what I am. What does it mean to feel like you are something other than what you are? It must be a terribly terrifying experience but I have no personal frame of reference and really can't even imagine it.

[Dave Gray]

^ I have evolved on that issue in my lifetime.  I used to have a much simpler "if you have a dick, you're a dude..what's the discussion?" mindset.  What swung me was listening to scientists talk about our biology and understanding what gender is.

I used to make the mistake of equating sex and gender.  They are not the same thing.  Gender is a combination of physical DNA (like what body part you have), but also body chemistry (testosterone/estrogen, etc) and even the wiring of brain chemistry...not to mention that gender is at least partially a social construct.  Your maleness is determined by a lot of different things, which is why dudes act like dudes and women act like women, traditionally. 

Transgenderism is when the physical aspects don't match the other aspects. 

The same way that you'd still be a dude on the inside if they took off your penis and put a hole there.  You aren't necessarily a dude inside just because you're born with one.

[Phishfan]

That's the thing thought Dave, I don't consciously "feel" like a man. It is just my natural state of being, much like sexuality. It is just a person's natural state. I can't conceptualize feeling like something other than what I am.

[CF DolFan]

I know this is controversial but it seems like a good point to put out the opposing view.  I've gone from supporting to thinking those people who are trans have a mental disorder. Regardless of the switch they still have a lot of issues that switching didn't fix. Not to mention some want to change back. I know people like to say they are tormented or bullied by others and as such are depressed but the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. That's huge and obviously points to other things as being the issue IMO.

[i]a person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.[/i]

Why do we see one as a disorder while the other is considered "normal" and everyone must accept it? Seems a bit odd to me.

With that said I have a guy I went to school with that had surgery before our 10th reunion. While we aren't best friends we are close enough (and Facebook Friends) that he sat with us during said reunion.  Other than knowing he was gay in high school I had no idea he wanted to be a dude. Imagine my surprise expecting to see Keith but instead a 6'2" black woman named Dana in heels walks in. It was a bit surreal.

[Spider-Dan]

If you were born a guy, regardless of what you "feel" you should have been, you will never be 100% a woman.

It is precisely my point that I think this is the real subtext behind this discussion, but people are trying to cloak it in concern over competitive advantage, even when we basically all agree that there is no significant problem right now.

That's why I keep referencing gay marriage: people who disapproved of homosexuality - but lost the legal battle to prohibit it - simply took another avenue to strikeback against the "gay agenda."  These were, almost without exception, people who would talk your ear off about the value of two parent households, the danger of single mothers, and the downsides of sex outside of a committed marriage... yet when it came to the gays, suddenly they want to stop marriages and force them to simply shack up instead?

So I think it's fair to question when many of the same people who contradicted their own values just to try to make LGBT lives worse now tell us that trans women are supposedly "dominating" women's sports when there are none of them even competing at the highest levels.

If your intent is to de-legitimize transgender-ism, making them not be able to compete as women in a thing specifically designed for women would surely be a notch in the belt.

Exactly.

[CF DolFan]

It is precisely my point that I think this is the real subtext behind this discussion, but people are trying to cloak it in concern over competitive advantage, even when we basically all agree that there is no significant problem right now.

That's why I keep referencing gay marriage: people who disapproved of homosexuality - but lost the legal battle to prohibit it - simply took another avenue to strikeback against the "gay agenda."  These were, almost without exception, people who would talk your ear off about the value of two parent households, the danger of single mothers, and the downsides of sex outside of a committed marriage... yet when it came to the gays, suddenly they want to stop marriages and force them to simply shack up instead?

So I think it's fair to question when many of the same people who contradicted their own values just to try to make LGBT lives worse now tell us that trans women are supposedly "dominating" women's sports when there are none of them even competing at the highest levels.
Exactly.

at the highest levels? So you don't care about screwing the young girls and women I guess?

So you are saying what is the point in doing what's right when it will serve some people who are bigots? That's just a wee bit bigoted don't you think? 

[Spider-Dan]

at the highest levels? So you don't care about screwing the young girls and women I guess?

The endgame of that particular line of argument is that every bulked up trans female is taking a roster spot from a real female, so therefore they shouldn't be allowed on the teams at all.  And that's a perfectly consistent position to take... if you hadn't opened the discussion under the cover of women losing repeatedly because of this unfair competitive advantage.

If you want to be against transgenderism, then be against it.  But don't try to smuggle in this Trojan horse about "taking over women's sports" when that clearly is not the issue.  Again, we just went through this: people who were unwilling to openly come out and say "I don't think homosexuality should be allowed" were instead trying to flank the issue by going after gay marriage.  And I'm seeing the same pattern right now.

So you are saying what is the point in doing what's right when it will serve some people who are bigots? That's just a wee bit bigoted don't you think?

First off, I'm not particularly receptive to the "Why are liberals so intolerant of my desire to discriminate?" argument.  But more to the point, you and I have different opinions on what "doing what's right" entails.

[Sunstroke]

people are trying to cloak it in concern over competitive advantage, even when we basically all agree that there is no significant problem right now.

Easy with that "we basically all agree" spiel, Spidey... I would say that cheating, regardless of the circumstances, is a problem.

Men competing in women's sports is cheating. If you were born a man, and decide to become a femme faux-tale, you should no longer be allowed to compete in physical competitions that are segregated by gender...unless you want to compete as your original biological gender.

[Spider-Dan]

Sorry, what I meant was that we all agree that trans women are not currently "dominating" or "taking over" women's sports.

[masterfins]

If you were born a guy, regardless of what you "feel" you should have been, you will never be 100% a woman. I mean, I can want  and call myself whatever I like but I'll never be a black man regardless of how much I augment my skin.
 

Slight hijack - This makes me think of the old George Carlin bit:  "What's your name?"  "Jenovsky"  How do you spell that? S-m-i-t-h.

lol

[masterfins]

Sorry, what I meant was that we all agree that trans women are not currently "dominating" or "taking over" women's sports.

I'd agree with your statement that it's not YET dominating or taking over women's sports.  BUT, there are stories throughout the country in even small communities of trans girls competing against other high school girls in sports, such as track, etc.  So, the question is, is it fair to the naturally born girls?  I don't think it is, and it's my belief that this is just another step in the wrong direction, where everyone gets a participation trophy.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Spider, How would you feel about a white person dying their skin claiming they "identity" as African American and then compete for an NACCP scholarship?  If only 4 or 5 scholarships a year go to biological Caucasians you really couldn't claim they are dominating the NACCP scholarships....

That is how I feel about single biological male beating a single biological female.  It is not about how many...a single instance is wrong.

[Phishfan]

Spider, How would you feel about a white person dying their skin claiming they "identity" as African American and then compete for an NACCP scholarship?  If only 4 or 5 scholarships a year go to biological Caucasians you really couldn't claim they are dominating the NACCP scholarships....

Rachel Dolezal?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Rachel Dolezal?

Exactly.   I didn't see any real difference between her and Caitlyn Jenner. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Slight hijack - This makes me think of the old George Carlin bit:  "What's your name?"  "Jenovsky"  How do you spell that? S-m-i-t-h.

lol

Hijack of your hijack.... when people ask me "how do you spell that?" I respond "T-h-a-t, doesn't everybody?"