Suggested police reform

[Phishfan]

I'd bet even the cops in Beverly Hills aren't from Beverly Hills.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

these seem sound... https://8cantwait.org/

[Spider-Dan]

Apparently Minneapolis already had 7 of those reforms "in place" before this started.

When the police don't follow the rules, I don't think asking them to follow more rules is the answer.  If accountability will not come from within, it must be enforced from without.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Apparently Minneapolis already had 7 of those reforms "in place" before this started.

When the police don't follow the rules, I don't think asking them to follow more rules is the answer.  If accountability will not come from within, it must be enforced from without.

Nope.  4 out of 8. 

Seriously, YOU are opposing the proposal of this website? 

[Spider-Dan]

I think those proposals are mostly theater.

1. Ban chokeholds and strangleholds - this is a good proposal, though I would point out that the NYPD had already done this and it took them 5 years to fire Daniel Pantaleo after Eric Garner was killed by his chokehold.

2. Require de-escalation - too vague to be meaningful, especially if enforced internally.

3. Require warning before shooting - too vague.   How long "before"?

4. Exhaust all alternatives - too vague.  I'm certain that nearly all of these deaths are already categorized by the cops as using lethal force as a "last resort."

5. Duty to intervene in excessive force from other officers - this is a good proposal, though I would imagine on paper this is already true.

6. Ban shooting at moving vehicles - this is a good proposal.

7. Require Use of Force continuum - if this continuum allows police to use lethal force when "their life is potentially in jeopardy," it doesn't change much.

8. Comprehensive reporting - not really useful if they are falsifying reports (which is already illegal).

The primary flaw in these reforms is that if the enforcement mechanism stays the same, we will get the same results.  Police departments already have many rules and regulations on the books that hypothetically should prevent these abuses.  The cops simply ignore them, and they aren't held accountable when they do.

There are already plenty of anti-misconduct rules in place; I don't think adding to the list of regulations that cops ignore will be helpful.  We need to change the system to make cops follow the existing rules first.

[Phishfan]

Spider is right, theater. The one remark he had I would change is 6 is also vague. What if the moving vehicle is directly in front being driven directly at an officer?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

While no one change will completely fix the problem, these will help.

1.  Minn doesn’t ban chock holds this is going to make a conviction in the Floyd murder harder than it would be if they were banned as he was following acceptable procedure for his department, even though many other departments ban it.

2.  Actually it can be quite specifc.

3.  Warning shot. 

4. Once again it can be written very specific.   Lack of policy give the cop a defense that he acted reasonably. 

5/ No it is not.  And why for that reason the other three in Floyd’s case will likely get reinstated with back pay down the road.

6.  Very helpful.  Here is why.  Bad cops are going to file false reports not knowing they were captured on film.  And folks that will excuse the excessive force won’t excuse the lying. 

[BuccaneerBrad]

Three steps to make things better, right away.

1) Mandatory body cameras on every officer that is on duty.  This is no-brainer, it would protect good police, it would harm bad police.

2) Police must carry individual insurance.  Doctors, plumbers, ...so many jobs require you to be insured.  This would make sure that the citizens don't have to pay the lawsuits to bail out shitty cops, where the system just goes on as it was before.  Cops that have too many complaints and incidents would have too high of insurance to operate.  You couldn't just be a shitty cop in city A, get fired, then go work in city B as the same asshole.  And ultimately, money is what will change this.

3) Specifics ethics laws that require police to be held accountable for the actions of the people on their call, where this is a possibility of de-escalation.

Three easy solutions, not targeted at anyone specifically that will help good police.

Also, eliminate all Internal Affairs Bureaus.  Cops that commit crimes are charged as civilians and their testimony is admissible in court.  

[Phishfan]

A warning before shooting by shooting? Warning shots are dangerous and there is a reason police don't use them.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't know that "Make sure you don't hit them until the second shot" changes much.  They are shooting people multiple times anyway.

[Spider-Dan]

Here's a great article from a former CIA officer who is now a cop in Savannah:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/03/beat-cop-militarized-policing-cia/

[Dolphster]

I applaud anyone who wants to reform (make better) any aspect of our society.  That includes law enforcement reforms.  In spite of what I'm about to say, don't stop trying to come up with ideas on how to make things better.  We should all be striving to "do better".  In our personal lives, in our careers, and in "groups" including law enforcement.  The problem that I have with many of the proposals I have read here and elsewhere is that as well intentioned as the proposals are, the vast majority of them are not realistic.  I can have general ideas about how to make the field of Accounting better.  But not having ever been an accountant, I don't know enough about it to make much in the way of specific proposals.  By the same token, those who have not been in law enforcement don't know enough about it to be able to make valid specific proposals either.  People's perception of law enforcement generally comes from movies/tv, the "news", the internet, etc.   Hardly any of those sources paint an accurate picture.  But people think they are experts because law enforcement is very often the topic of all those things. 

The change needs to come from within.  Being in that world, I think that educational requirements are a huge step in the right direction.  It has been pretty well proven that there is a direct correlation between educational level and racism.  The higher the education level, the lower the level of overt racism.  Probably not as direct of a correlation with latent racism but latent racism is a whole other topic that I won't even begin to go into here.  Over the last two or three decades, more and more police agencies are requiring a college degree for recruits.  I think that is a huge step forward.  However, the problem is a limited number of college graduates are interested in being cops.  And honestly, why would they?  For a college grad, the starting pay for a cop is very low, the stress of the job is horrible, 80% of your interaction with people is negative and you deal with some of the worst people in humanity sometimes.  There is a huge turnover in law enforcement.  Most local departments are constantly hiring.  There is no miracle cure for what ails the law enforcement profession.  But if we can find a way to make it more feasible to require a college degree and make it a more appealing career for college grads, I think that would be a huge step in reform.  Again, I'm not saying it is a miracle cure and it wouldn't make racism disappear within the police ranks.  There are plenty of college graduates who are racist.  But there is that correlation between education and racism so it would be a big step forward. 

Personally, I'm very fortunate in that due to the very specific mission of my "group" at my agency, even though most of us look like linebackers or Hell's Angels members, every one of us (approximately 35 of us) have at least a Master's Degree and we are at the top of the pay scale for our career field.  Therefore, there is little turnover because we are paid very well and we can hire the "best of the best".   I have been in this position for 12 years.  So using 35 as the approximate number of us, multiplied by the 12 years I have worked there, that is 420 years of service. As a unit, we have had 2 allegations of unneccesary use of force during that time.  2 incidents in 420 years of experience.  Now part of that is due to the fact that we don't deal with a lot of the "street level" crime that a local police department does.  But I think the biggest reason behind it is that we are all highly educated and our pay scale is high enough that we can be really choosy in who we hire.  Of course local police departments can't afford to hire new recruits at $100K plus per year.  But if we can find a way to make policing a more attractive option for college graduates, I really think that would help a lot. 

[Fau Teixeira]

We could also legalize drugs, provide universal healthcare, provide a federal jobs guarantee (or UBI, but i prefer the jobs guarantee). take all the money the justice system spends fighting the "war on drugs" and instead use it for treatment and recovery programs as well as mental health programs. Then mandate a title IX type system where teacher salaries are pegged to police salaries and I'd say we're a good way towards fixing what's broken.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Police have had their opportunity to make changes from within.  But they always choose not to.

And you only offer two ideas.  The first will result in even less innercity cops coming from innercities.  It is the equivalent of a poll tax.  The second is self-serving greed---pay overpaid cops more money.

If that is the best you can do you don't even deserve a voice in the discussion of how to end police brutality.

[Dolphster]

Police have had their opportunity to make changes from within.  But they always choose not to.

And you only offer two ideas.  The first will result in even less innercity cops coming from innercities.  It is the equivalent of a poll tax.  The second is self-serving greed---pay overpaid cops more money.

If that is the best you can do you don't even deserve a voice in the discussion of how to end police brutality.

And with that response, I'm done.  I'm not addressing this topic anymore.  I have tried to listen with empathy to all sides in these discussions.  I have even applauded those who have disagreed with me and stated that I have even altered my thoughts on some things because of what people with different points of view have said here in these discussions.  But when I get a response that is so stupid and closed minded that you even have the audacity to say that I "don't deserve a voice in this discussion"....then I realize that I am wasting my time and energy.   I don't know why I thought I could have an intelligent conversation with someone who thinks "innercity" is one word.  Your "us against them" mentality towards law enforcement is really going to help the situation a lot.  Best of luck to you and to all of us.