Terrorists storm US Capitol building; DC National Guard activated

[stinkfish]

Just read on facebook that Ashli Babbitt had retweeted a message that “Traitors should be lined up and shot”.  

Not lined up and shot. But hung from the neck until dead. Publicly would be nice.
Or even better. Most of these folks are the anti masker you can’t tell me what to do. Jesus will protect me crowd. Forcibly give them the vaccine. Then hang them from the neck until dead.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Stink,

I am not advocating capital punishment for all of the rioters.  Babbott was the woman who was shot.  I just thought it was quite ironic that she tweets that traitors should be shot (referring to anyone  who accepted the results of the election) and then subsequently gets shot while committing an act of treason.

[Dave Gray]

I don't understand how this happened, I will state that again.

A few reasons.  As a whole, society doesn't view large gangs of white people as menacing as large groups of black people.
Trump's involvement + legal permits gave this a feeling of legitimacy.  There was a permission structure for normal Republicans to think that an assault on the vote-counting was a normal political-disagreement, rather than fringe political craziness and a coup attempt.
DC isn't specifically a state, so there are a few issues with who is to respond/protect/plan for this.
The president bears some responsibility to respond to a crisis of this nature, which of course he didn't do, since he was in on it.
There are political motivations to excuse the president's actions and bury your head in the sand when the incitement is and has been happening right under your nose.
Most of the police themselves voted for Trump and are sympathetic to his cause, particular those responsible for organizing defense of the Capital.
We're boiling the frog.  Trump is always saying outlandish shit that we've gotten so used to it, that we don't take it as seriously as we should.



If Al Sharpton was busing in thousands of people, predominantly militant black men to protest the counting of votes at the Capital building, then gave that speech in the morning, none of this shit would've happened.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

The only thing I can think of more horrifying than what happened last week?  American troops spilling American blood in the Capitol building.  We don't come back from that. 

We would.  If Capitol police announced if you enter the capitol we shoot and shot the first one to enter between 1 and 10 people would have died (vs 5)

Many on the right would have (falsely)compared this to Kent State.  Most on both sides would have backed the police.  The left would blame Trump for inciting the incident and the right would justify it as a natural reaction to voter fraud. ( no different) A few on the left would call on republicans in joining the BLM’s call to deemphasize military tactics  and increase deescalation tactics. We would not have to be concerned that classified computer are now in the hads of our enemies.

The fallout would have been different, but not worse. Shooting might have cost a few extra lives or saved up to 4.  

[fyo]

(Ex) Chief of Capitol Police Force requested National Guard reinforcements 6 times and was consistently rebuffed. I don't know the exact command structure, though, so exactly who is directly to blame for that aspect, I don't know. (Certainly, anyone "higher up" in either Senate or the White House would have been able to apply pressure in either direction and in some cases even order it, but that doesn't necessarily mean those individuals stopped the Chief of Police's specific request.)

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955548910/ex-capitol-police-chief-rebuffs-claims-national-guard-was-never-called-during-ri

[fyo]

We would.  If Capitol police announced if you enter the capitol we shoot and shot the first one to enter between 1 and 10 people would have died (vs 5)

Many on the right would have (falsely)compared this to Kent State.  Most on both sides would have backed the police.  The left would blame Trump for inciting the incident and the right would justify it as a natural reaction to voter fraud. ( no different) A few on the left would call on republicans in joining the BLM’s call to deemphasize military tactics  and increase deescalation tactics. We would not have to be concerned that classified computer are now in the hads of our enemies.

The fallout would have been different, but not worse. Shooting might have cost a few extra lives or saved up to 4. 

There were 1400 officers of the Capitol Police on hand. A much more visible deployment would almost certainly have helped without resorting to actually shooting anyone.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There were 1400 officers of the Capitol Police on hand. A much more visible deployment would almost certainly have helped without resorting to actually shooting anyone.

True.  I am simply saying that a shoot to kill to prevent the insurrection would not have been worse than the present situation. 

[fyo]

True.  I am simply saying that a shoot to kill to prevent the insurrection would not have been worse than the present situation. 

I don't disagree, but then I always prefer non-violent responses for longer than most. I do think that falling back to the entrances and drawing firearms would have been appropriate, however. Basically, barricade the doors and subdue those who get through (with as little force as needed, but that includes lethal force). That's basically what the officers on the balcony that wasn't evacuated did, but that's NOT what happened elsewhere.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't disagree, but then I always prefer non-violent responses for longer than most. I do think that falling back to the entrances and drawing firearms would have been appropriate, however. Basically, barricade the doors and subdue those who get through (with as little force as needed, but that includes lethal force). That's basically what the officers on the balcony that wasn't evacuated did, but that's NOT what happened elsewhere.

I agree.  Fall back to the doors.  First line use tasers and mace.  Second line has pistols drawn to shoot anyone doesn't retreat after being maced or tasered. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't understand how this happened, I will state that again.  I would have thought the Capitol building had a contingency plan on top of a contingency plan for a general day, much less one where 100,000 + people were on the mall.  Crazier still, how once inside they let people leave.  You have them, now, make arrests. 

Serious question.  I assume you are aware that the vast majority of murders of black activists and black church bombings in the South during Jim Crow and Civil Right amEras went unsolved yet if I white was murdered almost immediately a black was arrested and charged.  Do you know the reason behind the very different outcomes? 

[Fau Teixeira]

I agree.  Fall back to the doors.  First line use tasers and mace.  Second line has pistols drawn to shoot anyone doesn't retreat after being maced or tasered. 

They wouldn't shoot their own.

[Dolphster]

Serious security lapses in government buildings in DC are astounding.  There have been over a dozen breaches at the White House that didn't just get onto White House property but actually into the White House itself.  The most recent one that I recall was this one:

September 19, 2014 – Omar Gonzalez jumped the fence from the Pennsylvania Avenue side of the White House and entered through the North Portico doors. Upon entering he overpowered a Secret Service officer and ran through most of the main floor before he was tackled by a counter-assault agent.

Proper protocols and established procedures are in place.  However the number of times that these protocols and procedures are not adhered to is amazing. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't believe security forces are generally there, only to be pulled away that day.  What I am saying it this; my belief would have been this: On literally any given day that building would have been able to repel what happened.  It's staggering to me to learn that is not the case.  I also believed that to be true for the White House, the Pentagon, etc; how many more of our intuitions could just be run over?

Forces weren’t pulled away.  However, no additional forces were added.  You had what you would have on a normal Wednesday in anticipation that biggest problem was needing to tell teenagers they can’t skateboard down the capitol steps.  And the size of the force was adequate for that.  

Also you assume the people in charge are professionals.  Trump doesn’t appoint people based on competence, but on willingness to bootlick.  Anyone who allows proper professional behavior to get in the way of the President’s agenda is fired and replaced with someone less competent.  The president’s agenda was to have the vote disrupted.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

This is where it gets a little scary, in hindsight; yes?  Go back to 'Stroke's encounter at DD and the deputy saying "it's about time" while watching the events unfold.  Again, my thought would have been that building would have been the most secure in the world, especially on that day; clearly I was very wrong.  How much of that was due to loyalty to Trump? 

I remember getting security briefings on when I was still in and, trust me, mine were really nothing.  They related to the cases I, and my team, worked on.  However they were still briefings and items Joe Public would never see.  I can't imagine what POTUS is made aware of.  Who knew of the security threats before they happened, and who made the decisions to stand down (1) and not go in (2)?  Those decisions are not made actively by Trump, but on his behalf, with his knowledge, and that is terrifying. 

As for the National Guard from MD and VA they were waiting for Acting Sec Def Miller who was only on the job since Espy was fired. 

[Dave Gray]

I don't believe security forces are generally there, only to be pulled away that day.  What I am saying it this; my belief would have been this: On literally any given day that building would have been able to repel what happened.  It's staggering to me to learn that is not the case.  I also believed that to be true for the White House, the Pentagon, etc; how many more of our intuitions could just be run over?

I'm not suggesting you're being insensitive to the race stuff, Maine.  I get what you're asking, I think.  I'll also try another way:


I think that your premise that the Capitol can handle that kind of pressure on any given day.  I think that premise is false.  I don't think there's enough staff to fend off an angry mob of thousands on a random Wednesday.  But, with foresight and prep and increased security members, they no doubt could.

My whole point is that because of all of the reasons I mentioned in my previous thread, this mob wasn't a perceived threat so those additional measures weren't taken.