It pays not to work in Biden's America

[pondwater]

If you raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, it's common sense and reasonable to assume that businesses hire less people. Therefore, the people they do hire will have more work and/or responsibilities placed on them. And I have a feeling that a good percentage of the low wage employees don't want more work and responsibilities. Most of them just want their pay doubled for doing the same thing they've been doing. And when, not if,  the government stops the free money train. These are the people that won't be in good shape regardless of what the minimum wage is set to. People usually take the path of least resistance and giving people a free ride only enables that poor behavior.

[Spider-Dan]

They would be taken out to the work site (a farm or construction site or whatever) by a prison bus and closely monitored by armed guards.  And they wouldn't necessarily be working for sub minimum wage.  They'd get paid a decent wage.

So how much taxpayer money is this worth to you?

The amount of guards you need to secure prisoners in a fully-locked down institution (where weapons are banned) is significantly less than the number of guards you would need to continue to secure that institution, but also to take prisoners out in the community and guard them with weapons.  So we'll be spending a lot more money on prison guard salaries.

Implicit in this plan is that the general public is going to accept prisoners with armed guards doing their landscaping and housecleaning, which... seems unlikely.  Especially if the companies that are hiring them are potentially going to be paying more than they are paying the illegal immigrants today.

[Spider-Dan]

If you raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, it's common sense and reasonable to assume that businesses hire less people.

It is equally reasonable to assume that those businesses will have fewer customers (and therefore, less income) than their competitors who are fully staffed and can provide superior customer service.

Over the last year, we have seen ample evidence of what happens when you give low-income people more money: they spend it.  Now, if you're an owner of a business and you don't want to hire enough people to take the money that's trying to come in the door, that's on you.

A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money.  As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers!

[Phishfan]

A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money.  As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers!

This is false. A raise in minimum wage does not guarantee anyone already making more than that any more money. There is even a thought that people making more than that now will see a wage freeze due to the other employees getting raises.

[pondwater]

It is equally reasonable to assume that those businesses will have fewer customers (and therefore, less income) than their competitors who are fully staffed and can provide superior customer service.

Over the last year, we have seen ample evidence of what happens when you give low-income people more money: they spend it.  Now, if you're an owner of a business and you don't want to hire enough people to take the money that's trying to come in the door, that's on you.

A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money.  As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers!

If you think you're going to outsmart the business sector, you're wrong. If you make them pay more wages they'll do any number of the following to offset the higher cost of labor. Raise prices, hire less people, cut hours, cut benefits, increase productivity requirements, or move jobs to a lower labor and/or lower taxes. $15 an hour doesn't help much if you have your hours cut and the cost of living rises. You guys think that you can just double the minimum wage without any other affects, you're crazy...

[Spider-Dan]

This is false. A raise in minimum wage does not guarantee anyone already making more than that any more money.

That is correct: if you make more than minimum wage right now, you will not see a pay increase.

The flip side of that is that if you are a business that is currently paying your employees more than $15/hr, an increase in the minimum wage means (some portion of) your customers have more money, full stop.

There is even a thought that people making more than that now will see a wage freeze due to the other employees getting raises.

People see wage freezes for any reason or no reason at all, in a good economy or a bad one.

Well, that's not exactly true: it is for a reason.  The reason is "management wants to increase profits," which is something you cannot prevent... no matter how low you keep wages.

[Spider-Dan]

If you think you're going to outsmart the business sector, you're wrong. If you make them pay more wages they'll do any number of the following to offset the higher cost of labor. Raise prices, hire less people, cut hours, cut benefits, increase productivity requirements, or move jobs to a lower labor and/or lower taxes.

American workers have had record-setting productivity over the last 40 years.  And guess what?  The business sector has done all of those things anyway!

Since the dawn of the Reagan Revolution and trickle-down economics, we have tried depending on the charity of American businesses to pay their employees a living wage (instead of forcing them to).  This experiment has been a widespread failure.  Instead of paying their employees a decent wage, corporations prefer to pay poverty wages and have the taxpayer safety net make up the difference (on everything from food stamps, to section 8 housing, to Medicaid).  They exploit every loophole to offshore their profits so they can avoid paying taxes back to the communities that funded them.  They cut hours so they can shift the cost of employee healthcare from themselves to the taxpayer.  All so that executives can get more bonuses and shareholders can get larger dividends.

The social contract has been broken; businesses did not hold up their end.  I shed no tears for employers who cry about not being able to find anyone willing to work for poverty wages, serving the public during a global pandemic.

[CF DolFan]

I know from experience that many of the non workers are college students. No reason to work if you are making more or even a little less and doing nothing. Raising the minimum wage to $15 won't make most people go back to work if they can make anything close to that on unemployment. Like I said ... the people who "need" the money have gone back to work because they can't afford not having a job when the free money runs out.  Most of the ones choosing not to work are people who are perfectly fine with skating by on the bare minimum.

[Spider-Dan]

Raising the minimum wage to $15 won't make most people go back to work if they can make anything close to that on unemployment. Like I said ... the people who "need" the money have gone back to work because they can't afford not having a job when the free money runs out.

These two sentences directly contradict each other.

There are definitely more people concerned about keeping a $15/hr job after the supplemental unemployment runs out than there are people concerned about keeping an $8/hr job.

[CF DolFan]

These two sentences directly contradict each other.

There are definitely more people concerned about keeping a $15/hr job after the supplemental unemployment runs out than there are people concerned about keeping an $8/hr job.

again ... $15 an hour for a job that requires zero skill is absolutely ludicrous. Our local Mcdonalds is begging people to work for $11 and that's crazy to me.  95% of America shouldn't have to pay higher prices only because some people have no desire to do any better with their lives.

[CF DolFan]

It appears Biden is now at least aware of the problem. Now whether he does anything about it ...

President Joe Biden on Monday said that anyone taking unemployment who gets offered a 'suitable job' must take it or lose their benefits after experts revealed that people making $32,000 before COVID could now earn more by staying at home. 'We're going to make it clear that anyone collecting unemployment, who is offered a suitable job must take the job or lose their unemployment benefits,' the president said in remarks at the White House.  'There are a few COVID-19 related exceptions, so that people aren't forced to choose between their basic safety and a paycheck, but otherwise, that's the law,' he added.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9563313/Biden-says-taking-unemployment-offered-suitable-job-it.html

[masterfins]

It is equally reasonable to assume that those businesses will have fewer customers (and therefore, less income) than their competitors who are fully staffed and can provide superior customer service.

Over the last year, we have seen ample evidence of what happens when you give low-income people more money: they spend it.  Now, if you're an owner of a business and you don't want to hire enough people to take the money that's trying to come in the door, that's on you.

A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money.  As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers!

I'm not against raising the minimum wage to $15/hour over a five year period, which is I believe what Biden's proposal is; many states are almost there already.

But your first statement about fully staffed and businesses with better service out performing low cost operations is completely wrong.  There is a reason the Wal-Mart's and Home Depot's have been putting small businesses out of business across the country, and it's not because they have better service.  It's because their prices are cheaper because they buy on a large scale, AND they have lower pay and lower benefits than the small mom & pop businesses traditionally had.  The better staffed/better service businesses (with higher prices) only appeal to upper income individuals.

[masterfins]

There are definitely more people concerned about keeping a $15/hr job after the supplemental unemployment runs out than there are people concerned about keeping an $8/hr job.

Yes, but here where I live in Upstate NY the minimum wage is $12.50/hour ($13.50 for fast food restaurants); and because the minimum wage is already high here people aren't worried about going back to work.  There are "now hiring" signs outside of every type of business and they can't get workers.  Business are offering hiring bonuses to get people for $12.50/ hour minimum wage jobs at grocery stores and restaurants.  No one wants to work with the current unemployment free ride.

[pondwater]

Yes, but here where I live in Upstate NY the minimum wage is $12.50/hour ($13.50 for fast food restaurants); and because the minimum wage is already high here people aren't worried about going back to work.  There are "now hiring" signs outside of every type of business and they can't get workers.  Business are offering hiring bonuses to get people for $12.50/ hour minimum wage jobs at grocery stores and restaurants.  No one wants to work with the current unemployment free ride.

Burger King up the street starting at $10/hr and offering a hiring bonus. It's ridiculous. I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to wish they took a job earlier.

[Fau Teixeira]

I'm not against raising the minimum wage to $15/hour over a five year period, which is I believe what Biden's proposal is; many states are almost there already.

But your first statement about fully staffed and businesses with better service out performing low cost operations is completely wrong.  There is a reason the Wal-Mart's and Home Depot's have been putting small businesses out of business across the country, and it's not because they have better service.  It's because their prices are cheaper because they buy on a large scale, AND they have lower pay and lower benefits than the small mom & pop businesses traditionally had.  The better staffed/better service businesses (with higher prices) only appeal to upper income individuals.

It's because the US taxpayer subsidizes their poverty wages. Every walmart employee that gets food stamps, medicaid, housing assistance or any other type of poverty assistance is an act of government support of their exploitation based business model.  The minute workers are given a choice to not work for crap wages, they take that opportunity however it comes.