Ivermectin and Joe Rogan

[pondwater]

The COVID vaccines are less than a year old, but ivermectin has been used safely on horses and humans for decades.

There, I fixed it for you. You're welcome 👌👌👌

[Dolphster]

Jeez, I'm sorry I asked the question now.  I didn't mean to get you two all fired up at each other again. lol

[pondwater]

Jeez, I'm sorry I asked the question now.  I didn't mean to get you two all fired up at each other again. lol

I'm not fired up. Just presenting all of the information instead of a one sided view with only half the facts. I'm not advocating for anyone to take or not take Ivermectin, vaccines, or skittles soaked in vodka. These days you have to be sceptical of everything because everyone has an angle. Especially people who describe themselves as "radical" liberal progressives. So don't take my word for it and don't take Spider's word for it. In life we all have to do our own research and make our own decisions that we think is best for our own personal circumstances.

[Spider-Dan]

The version that is produced for humans is safe and cheap.

For HUMANS, ivermectin is a prescription drug; full stop.  It has been available for over 30 years, so if it were safe enough for patients to use at their own discretion, it would not still be prescription-only.  Keeping that in mind:

Doctors have prescribed Ivermectin to their patients in the hospital with Covid. Hospitals have refused and courts have gotten involved.

Individual doctors are not emperors; they may not prescribe literally any drug to treat literally any condition.  Any hospital that chose to look the other way and use an unapproved treatment would be exposing themselves to legal risk, which is why they made the courts order them to do so.

I'll also point out the overt bad faith in this kind of complaint.  So when a doctor tells a hospital that they should use ivermectin to treat COVID, that command must be followed by said hospital staff without delay, but when a hospital (or other organization) says that its own employees must be vaccinated, that's a violation of a person's bodily autonomy?

But if you want to complain about and/or stop people from taking livestock Ivermectin, honor their prescription for Ivermectin produced for humans.

Sorry, you've got it twisted: I support and encourage loons who want to eat horse deworming paste.  Go ahead and inject disinfectant while you're at it.  Just don't take up a hospital bed after the predictable outcome occurs.

[Spider-Dan]

And now even the anti-vaxxers who haven't caught COVID are STILL figuring out ways to crowd the hospitals, keeping other Americans from being able to seek medical care:

Oklahoma's ERs are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims are having to wait to be treated, a doctor says

An ER doctor in Oklahoma said rural hospitals were clogged with people overdosing on ivermectin.  Jason McElyea said the bed shortage was so severe that gunshot victims had to wait to be treated.  McElyea said people were reporting vision loss after overdosing on the deworming drug.

A doctor in rural Oklahoma said the number of people overdosing on the deworming medication ivermectin was so high that emergency rooms were filled to the brim.

The situation is so dire that people with gunshot wounds have to wait their turn to get treatment, Dr. Jason McElyea, an ER physician affiliated with hospitals in Sallisaw, told KFOR, an NBC affiliate in Oklahoma City.

McElyea spoke to the channel this week about the dangers of overdosing on the version of ivermectin meant for use in livestock. He said the hospitals he worked at became overwhelmed after people started taking ivermectin, believing unverified claims that it's an effective COVID-19 treatment.

"The ERs are so backed up that gunshot victims were having hard times getting to facilities where they can get definitive care and be treated," McElyea said.

He added: "All of their ambulances are stuck at the hospital waiting for a bed to open so they can take the patient in and they don't have any, that's it. If there's no ambulance to take the call, there's no ambulance to come to the call."

---

Everything is about maximum self-interest with these clowns.  Their selfishness and stupidity is causing innocent people to die.  And not only will more people be killed by ivermectin poisoning than by vaccines, but the secondary deaths of people who can't be treated due to hospitals full of ivermectin patients will probably not even be counted.

[pondwater]

For HUMANS, ivermectin is a prescription drug; full stop.  It has been available for over 30 years, so if it were safe enough for patients to use at their own discretion, it would not still be prescription-only. Keeping that in mind:

Millions of people pick up prescriptions everyday and take them home and use them at their own discretion with zero supervision. Prescription Ivermectin produced for humans is safe and cheap. That's just a fact, but then again facts won't deter you from your goal of arguing about anything even when you're obviously wrong.  Keeping that in mind:

Individual doctors are not emperors; they may not prescribe literally any drug to treat literally any condition.  Any hospital that chose to look the other way and use an unapproved treatment would be exposing themselves to legal risk, which is why they made the courts order them to do so.

Annnnnnnd, you're wrong again. Harvard Law says: Accordingly, because ivermectin is FDA-approved, any state-licensed prescriber can order its use for any patient, for any purpose. So before you try to confuse people with your misleading word salad in an attempt to pivot and spin the conversation away from you being wrong. Let me make clear what we're talking about. We're not talking about literally any drug, we're talking about Ivermectin. A prescription drug made for humans that is safe, cheap, and legal

I'll also point out the overt bad faith in this kind of complaint.  So when a doctor tells a hospital that they should use ivermectin to treat COVID, that command must be followed by said hospital staff without delay,

If a doctor prescribes their patient Ivermectin and the patient give consent, then the patient should be given the medication.

but when a hospital (or other organization) says that its own employees must be vaccinated, that's a violation of a person's bodily autonomy?

No, of course not. If you don't want to get a vaccination, find another job that doesn't require one. There are plenty of employers hiring right now.

Sorry, you've got it twisted: I support and encourage loons who want to eat horse deworming paste.  Go ahead and inject disinfectant while you're at it.  Just don't take up a hospital bed after the predictable outcome occurs.

The only thing twisted is your "radical" logic. It's funny watching the wingnuts argue for universal healthcare for everyone and legalizing drugs. While at the same time wanting to refuse healthcare and safe, cheap, and legal drugs to people who's politics you disagree. I give you too much credit when I imply that you are a socialist because the hypocritical authoritarian bullshit you spew sounds full on communist.

[pondwater]

And now even the anti-vaxxers who haven't caught COVID are STILL figuring out ways to crowd the hospitals, keeping other Americans from being able to seek medical care:

Oklahoma's ERs are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims are having to wait to be treated, a doctor says

An ER doctor in Oklahoma said rural hospitals were clogged with people overdosing on ivermectin.  Jason McElyea said the bed shortage was so severe that gunshot victims had to wait to be treated.  McElyea said people were reporting vision loss after overdosing on the deworming drug.

A doctor in rural Oklahoma said the number of people overdosing on the deworming medication ivermectin was so high that emergency rooms were filled to the brim.

The situation is so dire that people with gunshot wounds have to wait their turn to get treatment, Dr. Jason McElyea, an ER physician affiliated with hospitals in Sallisaw, told KFOR, an NBC affiliate in Oklahoma City.

McElyea spoke to the channel this week about the dangers of overdosing on the version of ivermectin meant for use in livestock. He said the hospitals he worked at became overwhelmed after people started taking ivermectin, believing unverified claims that it's an effective COVID-19 treatment.

"The ERs are so backed up that gunshot victims were having hard times getting to facilities where they can get definitive care and be treated," McElyea said.

He added: "All of their ambulances are stuck at the hospital waiting for a bed to open so they can take the patient in and they don't have any, that's it. If there's no ambulance to take the call, there's no ambulance to come to the call."

---

Everything is about maximum self-interest with these clowns.  Their selfishness and stupidity is causing innocent people to die.  And not only will more people be killed by ivermectin poisoning than by vaccines, but the secondary deaths of people who can't be treated due to hospitals full of ivermectin patients will probably not even be counted.

What if a vaccinated person was about die of Covid? Should they be administered Ivermectin to attempt to save their life if their doctor prescribes it? Yes or no?

To reiterate, you can give people the safe, cheap, and legal human version of Ivermectin under a doctor supervision or you can let them go take a dangerous livestock version on their own and take up hospital beds, pick one. Seems like an easy fix to me. Pick one.

Let's be clear here, you don't give a shit about anyone dying. This is purely political for you. You argue against giving prescription Ivermectin to people, but yet at the same time complain about people taking the livestock version and taking up hospital beds. And then wanting them to just "go home and die". Maybe next you'll advocate rounding up all the scary anti-vaxxers and sending them to concentration re-education camps. You're sick, you need to address your hate and anger issues.

[Spider-Dan]

Doctors have prescribed Ivermectin to their patients in the hospital with Covid. Hospitals have refused and courts have gotten involved. In fact I think that the NY Supreme Court and an Ohio court recently ordered the hospitals to treat patients with Ivermectin.

Annnnnnnd, you're wrong again. Harvard Law says: Accordingly, because ivermectin is FDA-approved, any state-licensed prescriber can order its use for any patient, for any purpose.

Looks like you spoke too soon on this one:

Judge says Ohio hospital cannot be forced to use ivermectin to treat Covid, reversing earlier decision

A judge ruled Monday that an Ohio hospital cannot be forced to give a patient ivermectin for Covid-19, reversing an earlier decision that ordered it to administer a parasite medication that has not been approved to treat the disease.

In an 11-page decision, Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Michael Oster Jr. wrote that there "was no doubt that the medical and scientific communities do not support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19."

Based on the current evidence, Oster wrote, the drug - which is primarily used to deworm horses but has been promoted by some doctors, some Republicans and the popular podcast host Joe Rogan to combat the coronavirus - "is not an effective treatment for Covid-19."

Oster cited advisories from the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical associations that have warned against using the medication for Covid-19.

Oster also cited problems with research into using ivermectin to treat the disease, including the withdrawal of a non-peer-reviewed study from a website that posts academic pre-prints.

Julie Smith, the wife of the patient, Jeffrey Smith, had sued the hospital to force doctors to administer the medication.

"While this court is sympathetic to the plaintiff and understands the idea of wanting to do anything to help her loved one, public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try 'any' type of treatment on human beings," he wrote.

---

So I guess this means Harvard Law was wrong, or something?  Or maybe this area of law is not 100% settled.

Any hospital that uses ivermectin to a treat a condition that it is not proven to treat (i.e. "off label usage") is exposing itself to legal liability.  Again, doctors are not emperors; if you are holding a prescription for a drug, that does not compel any hospital you walk into to provide you that drug.

[Dave Gray]

I have nothing against this drug.  I think it's a bit disingenuous (though kinda funny) to call it horse paste, because there's nothing inherently wrong with a medicine that has a livestock use and can also be used for human treatment.

But I am generally against patients choosing their own medicines.  Doctors should determine what is the correct thing to prescribe.  I hope this stuff is COVID beneficial -- one more tool in the arsenal...it doesn't sound like that's the case.  But I find it weird that people are pushing doctors that don't want to administer it to prescribe it anyway.

[Spider-Dan]

Dave, it's perfectly reasonable to refer to it as livestock medicine (or: "horse paste").  If you don't have a prescription - as is the case for the VAST majority of people taking ivermectin to fight COVID - then you are almost certainly using livestock medicine, as that doesn't require a prescription.

Now, if you're saying that it's disingenuous to call it "horse paste" because they might be using sheep drench instead, that's a fair point.  But nearly all of them are using products not meant for humans.

[CF DolFan]

Dave, it's perfectly reasonable to refer to it as livestock medicine (or: "horse paste").  If you don't have a prescription - as is the case for the VAST majority of people taking ivermectin to fight COVID - then you are almost certainly using livestock medicine, as that doesn't require a prescription.

I don't believe that is true. It's definitely not in my world. The people I know who have it have gotten it prescribed. They may have the horse version too but that isn't what they are taking.

[pondwater]

Looks like you spoke too soon on this one:

Judge says Ohio hospital cannot be forced to use ivermectin to treat Covid, reversing earlier decision

A judge ruled Monday that an Ohio hospital cannot be forced to give a patient ivermectin for Covid-19, reversing an earlier decision that ordered it to administer a parasite medication that has not been approved to treat the disease.

In an 11-page decision, Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Michael Oster Jr. wrote that there "was no doubt that the medical and scientific communities do not support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19."

Based on the current evidence, Oster wrote, the drug - which is primarily used to deworm horses but has been promoted by some doctors, some Republicans and the popular podcast host Joe Rogan to combat the coronavirus - "is not an effective treatment for Covid-19."

Oster cited advisories from the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical associations that have warned against using the medication for Covid-19.

Oster also cited problems with research into using ivermectin to treat the disease, including the withdrawal of a non-peer-reviewed study from a website that posts academic pre-prints.

Julie Smith, the wife of the patient, Jeffrey Smith, had sued the hospital to force doctors to administer the medication.

"While this court is sympathetic to the plaintiff and understands the idea of wanting to do anything to help her loved one, public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try 'any' type of treatment on human beings," he wrote.

So a single judge in a single case reversed his original ruling. What's your point? Do you want a cookie or participation trophy or something? There have been rulings in other states that have ordered Ivermectin to be administered. Maybe you're just confused and think that "off label usage" is illegal or something? Here's a hint, it's not.
---

So I guess this means Harvard Law was wrong, or something?  Or maybe this area of law is not 100% settled.

Any hospital that uses ivermectin to a treat a condition that it is not proven to treat (i.e. "off label usage") is exposing itself to legal liability.  Again, doctors are not emperors; if you are holding a prescription for a drug, that does not compel any hospital you walk into to provide you that drug.

Well if you even read the article, Harvard Law wasn't wrong. The law says, because ivermectin is FDA-approved, any state-licensed prescriber can order its use for any patient, for any purpose. Are you arguing against "off label usage" or are you arguing against using prescription Ivermectin?

Also, it's quite amusing that you don't want people to have prescription Ivermectin, but at the same time complain about people using the livestock version and clogging up hospitals(fake news). More hypocrisy on your end. Explain to us all again exactly why you're against a person using a safe and cheap medication that was legally prescribed by a licensed physician?

[pondwater]

Dave, it's perfectly reasonable to refer to it as livestock medicine (or: "horse paste").  If you don't have a prescription - as is the case for the VAST majority of people taking ivermectin to fight COVID - then you are almost certainly using livestock medicine, as that doesn't require a prescription.

Now, if you're saying that it's disingenuous to call it "horse paste" because they might be using sheep drench instead, that's a fair point.  But nearly all of them are using products not meant for humans.

What I find disingenuous a flat out lie is when you post that Oklahoma's ERs are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims are having to wait to be treated. Maybe you should fact check your radical and fake news before you post it. I could be wrong though. Please provide detailed info regarding multiple ERs clogged up to the point that multiple gunshot victims are having to wait to receive treatment.

Two hospitals have specifically refuted the fake news you posted

-----

NHS Sequoyah:

Although Dr. Jason McElyea is not an employee of NHS Sequoyah, he is affiliated with a medical staffing group that provided coverage for our emergency room.

With that said, Dr. McElyea has not worked at our Sallisaw location in over 2 months.

NHS Sequoyah has not treated any patients due to complications related to taking ivermectin. This includes not treating any patients for ivermectin overdose.

All patients who have visited out emergency room have received medical attention as appropriate. Our hospital has not had to turn away any patients seeking emergency care.

We want to reassure our community that our staff is working hard to provide quality healthcare to all  patients. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this issue and as always we value our community's support.

-----

McAlester Regional Health Center:

At this time we are not aware of any Ivermectin overdoses at our facility. Dr. McElyea is not employed with McAlester Regional Health Center.

[Spider-Dan]

Harvard Law said one thing and a judge (on a case YOU cited!) said another; specifically, "public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try 'any' type of treatment on human beings."

Now, after all the flapping and squawking you did about how I refused to admit being wrong, seems like a ruling that contradicts YOUR position just gets hand-waved away while you admit nothing!  So maybe you should spend less time accusing others of trying to distract from their own wrongness when you happily ignore court rulings you don't like.

Also, it's quite amusing that you don't want people to have prescription Ivermectin, but at the same time complain about people using the livestock version and clogging up hospitals(fake news). More hypocrisy on your end. Explain to us all again exactly why you're against a person using a safe and cheap medication that was legally prescribed by a licensed physician?

I don't actually care if you want to take prescription ivermectin for humans, or if you want to take horse deworming paste.  What I care about - regardless of the ivermectin source - is people taking ivermectin as an anti-COVID drug and ALSO taking up a hospital bed.  To make this 100% clear: my problem is not with the person taking ivermectin, it's that they were at a hospital while trying to do so.

You want to experiment on yourself with drugs that don't work?  Do it at your own house, and get the hell out of the hospital so you can make room for someone that wants REAL medical help.

[Spider-Dan]

Two hospitals have specifically refuted the fake news you posted

-----

NHS Sequoyah:

Although Dr. Jason McElyea is not an employee of NHS Sequoyah, he is affiliated with a medical staffing group that provided coverage for our emergency room.

With that said, Dr. McElyea has not worked at our Sallisaw location in over 2 months.

NHS Sequoyah has not treated any patients due to complications related to taking ivermectin. This includes not treating any patients for ivermectin overdose.

All patients who have visited out emergency room have received medical attention as appropriate. Our hospital has not had to turn away any patients seeking emergency care.

We want to reassure our community that our staff is working hard to provide quality healthcare to all  patients. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this issue and as always we value our community's support.

-----

McAlester Regional Health Center:

At this time we are not aware of any Ivermectin overdoses at our facility. Dr. McElyea is not employed with McAlester Regional Health Center.

"NHS Sequoyah" stands for "Northeastern Health System Sequoyah."

When a doctor describes the conditions in "southern and eastern Oklahoma," and an organization called Northeastern Health System - who was not named or cited by the aforementioned doctor - says, "We don't see this in our hospitals and this guy doesn't even work for us," what does that tell us about the original claim?

Similarly, when a different organization (McAlester Regional Health Center) says, "We aren't seeing this volume and this guy doesn't work for us," but they weren't cited in the first place, what should we take from that statement?  (I mean, setting aside the fact that this hospital might be nursing a grudge against this particular doctor.)

Has anyone that he actually works for made a statement?  Why, yes they have:

CEO of McCurtain Memorial Hospital Brad Morse (ed. note: in southeastern Oklahoma) said his hospital simply doesn't have all the equipment needed to care for such sick patients and there are no places to transfer them.

"Right now, no higher levels of care are taking our transfers," Morse said. "There are no ICU beds open."

The medical professionals said they're also seeing patients being admitted for taking Ivermectin, a horse deworming medication that has taken over social media for treating COVID, which they said is causing more unnecessary hospital visits.

"That's something that can be avoided," said Dr. McElyea.