Zach Thomas Denied HoF Again

[Fau Teixeira]

Which of the 5 that got in are unworthy?

Sam mills
Tony Boselli
Richard Seymour

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

The list of every NFL player with 5 First-Team All-Pro selections and 1,500 career tackles:

• Ray Lewis*
• Junior Seau*
• Derrick Brooks*
• Zach Thomas

*Hall of Famer

The HoFs also were each DPOY and on superbowl teams.

[Spider-Dan]

The list of every NFL player with 5 First-Team All-Pro selections and 1,500 career tackles:

• Ray Lewis*
• Junior Seau*
• Derrick Brooks*
• Zach Thomas

*Hall of Famer

Similarly:

The list of every NFL player with 5 First-Team All-Pro selections and 1,500 career tackles who has played in a Super Bowl:

• Ray Lewis*
• Junior Seau*
• Derrick Brooks*

*Hall of Famer

The fact that none of Zach's teams did anything in the playoffs hurts him.  A lot.  Without a DPOY or Super Bowl appearance, Zach will need a Hail Mary to get in.  But Sam Mills just got one, so it's not hopeless!

[Dolfanalyst]

The HoFs also were each DPOY and on superbowl teams.

Yeah so then the question becomes, what are the criteria for admission to the HoF?  Apparently it's something different than just individual talent and achievement, because 5 first-team all-pro selections is quite the distinctive indicator of individual talent and achievement.  I suspect there is variation among the HoF voters regarding the criteria for admission.  Some of them are functioning with certain primary criteria in mind, while others are functioning with other primary criteria in mind.  Consequently there are inconsistencies among the players admitted and not admitted.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Yeah so then the question becomes, what are the criteria for admission to the HoF?  Apparently it's something different than just individual talent and achievement, because 5 first-team all-pro selections is quite the distinctive indicator of individual talent and achievement.  I suspect there is variation among the HoF voters regarding the criteria for admission.  Some of them are functioning with certain primary criteria in mind, while others are functioning with other primary criteria in mind.  Consequently there are inconsistencies among the players admitted and not admitted.

I am certain there is variation in the voters on what is the most important criteria for admission, just as different voters have different criteria for elected officials. 

In my opinion individual stats do matter, but so does the issue of whether those stat led to something greater.  Yippy, you ran a fumble back for a TD with 30 seconds in the game.  But if all it did was change your losing score from 24-0 to 24-7 was it really that meaningful of a fumble recovery or just an empty stat.

If you are a dominating player on an otherwise crap team, yeah you can make the HoF.  JT did.

But most teams don’t have two hall of fame quality defensive players.  Those teams that do have dominating defenses. Dolphins never had a dominating defense. Baltimore Ravens sending two or more defensive players from that era to the HoF - absolutely.  Dolphins- no.

A hall of fame player is someone who made a significant impact on the game.  ZT collect some stats but is largely a forgettable player.

As your former VP said, “you are what your record says you are” If JT and ZT was so great why weren’t the defenses they played on? How can some one claim Marino was the greatest QB ever and Shula was the greatest coach ever that could “beat ya with his then beat ya with yours” when he couldn’t beat ya with Marino as his QB? Great people accomplishment great things.  Yeah, you can have one great player held back by others.  But a team of multiple hall of famers doesn’t go 1-15.

[Dolfanalyst]

I am certain there is variation in the voters on what is the most important criteria for admission, just as different voters have different criteria for elected officials. 

In my opinion individual stats do matter, but so does the issue of whether those stat led to something greater.  Yippy, you ran a fumble back for a TD with 30 seconds in the game.  But if all it did was change your losing score from 24-0 to 24-7 was it really that meaningful of a fumble recovery or just an empty stat.

If you are a dominating player on an otherwise crap team, yeah you can make the HoF.  JT did.

But most teams don’t have two hall of fame quality defensive players.  Those teams that do have dominating defenses. Dolphins never had a dominating defense. Baltimore Ravens sending two or more defensive players from that era to the HoF - absolutely.  Dolphins- no.

A hall of fame player is someone who made a significant impact on the game.  ZT collect some stats but is largely a forgettable player.

As your former VP said, “you are what your record says you are” If JT and ZT was so great why weren’t the defenses they played on? How can some one claim Marino was the greatest QB ever and Shula was the greatest coach ever that could “beat ya with his then beat ya with yours” when he couldn’t beat ya with Marino as his QB? Great people accomplishment great things.  Yeah, you can have one great player held back by others.  But a team of multiple hall of famers doesn’t go 1-15.

Right, but there is probably some simple math we can do here consisting of nothing other than the probability of a player's earning 5 all-pro selections during his career (number of players with that distinction, divided by the number of NFL players in history), in comparison to the probability of a player's being admitted to the HoF (number of players in the HoF, divided by the number of NFL players in history).  I suspect the latter probability would be comparable to the former, which would raise legitimate questions about why Thomas hasn't been admitted.  I mean if players are distinguishing themselves via achievements that are about as improbable as HoF admissions, then you have to wonder why they haven't been admitted.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Right, but there is probably some simple math we can do here consisting of nothing other than the probability of a player's earning 5 all-pro selections during his career (number of players with that distinction, divided by the number of NFL players in history), in comparison to the probability of a player's being admitted to the HoF (number of players in the HoF, divided by the number of NFL players in history).  I suspect the latter probability would be comparable to the former, which would raise legitimate questions about why Thomas hasn't been admitted.  I mean if players are distinguishing themselves via achievements that are about as improbable as HoF admissions, then you have to wonder why they haven't been admitted.

I think the DPOY that those three have is a major distinction.  It is one thing to be judged as either the best or second best player at your position (2 middle linebackers are selected) as opposed to being the single best defensive player.  

As earlier stated different people have different criteria, but lets say we had two players and all we know is:  

Player A: 1x DPOY, 3x All-Pro

Player B: 0 DPOY, 5x All-Pro

I am going to vote player A without hesitation.  Yes, player B had 5 standout years vs 3.  But player A had a year where he was THE MAN.  And one year of absolutely the best is worth more than 3 years of being among the very best.

I doubt there are many players with any one  of the following honors: league MVP, OPOY, DPOY that aren’t in the hall, unless they had one good year and that is all. And that is one of things that makes those three different from Zach.  

[Downunder Dolphan]

This was one of the best opportunities he had to make it - none of the players were first year eligibles, and most of the inductees had been nominated many times. Seymore had been eligible for 5 years, the rest 10 or more.

It makes me wonder if there will be less first year eligible inductees in future?

[Downunder Dolphan]

On that note, guys who think their play has made them HOF worthy may be wise to put off retirement for at least a year.   If they retire this year, they will be competing against Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and quite possibly Rob Gronkowski when 2027 rolls around.   That's three of the five slots right there.

All are HOF worthy, but I think Brady would be the only one guaranteed straight in first year being eligible. Gronk would be a big maybe depending on who else is around - although I think the bromance of having the two going in the same year would be there...

Big Ben on the other hand I reckon will have to wait a few years - his off field incidents over his career, and his last two years of quite poor play aren't going to do him any favors. Plus I just can't see him being elected the same year as Brady.