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Author Topic: NE culture/"The Patriot Way" (from DVP trade thread)  (Read 3548 times)
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2022, 02:50:08 pm »

Belichick and Brady are certainly great and first-ballot Hall of Famers, but their presence alone doesn't explain "the Patriot way" -- the team's uncanny pattern of resilience in the face of adversity, most notably reflected in unlikely comebacks in games, the relative absence of losing streaks, and the ability to turn seasons around after starting them poorly. [...]

That knack for playing that way represents something far more than just talent at head coach and QB.
And why do you say that?

Why do you believe that a head coach - one who clearly prepares his players for many different situations, to a level that is obviously better than most of his contemporaries - cannot have that kind of impact on a team through practice and training?

Why do you believe that a QB who has played at an elite level for a longer period than any other QB ever can produce these kind of results, even immediately upon joining a different team?

Why do you instead attribute their success to motivation?  Why would you think that Brady's teammates are just More Motivated than the thousands of other great players to come through the league, when there is clear and uncontroversial evidence that Belichick and Brady are objectively better at their jobs than their peers?

Steph Curry is the greatest 3-point shooter in the history of basketball.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he's more mentally tough than Ray Allen, or has better emotional support from his family than Reggie Miller, or has stronger motivation from his coaches than Larry Bird.  It can simply mean that he's naturally better at shooting threes.  No need to invent a psychological narrative when a perfectly mundane one already exists.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 02:54:24 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

dolphins4life
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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2022, 03:51:18 pm »

Belichick is a coattail rider, Brady's back must hurt.

Let me ask you again.

If this is true, why do the Patriots have such a great record in playoff games in which Brady has underperformed?
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Dolfanalyst
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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2022, 04:29:57 pm »

And why do you say that?

Why do you believe that a head coach - one who clearly prepares his players for many different situations, to a level that is obviously better than most of his contemporaries - cannot have that kind of impact on a team through practice and training?

Why do you believe that a QB who has played at an elite level for a longer period than any other QB ever can produce these kind of results, even immediately upon joining a different team?

Why do you instead attribute their success to motivation?  Why would you think that Brady's teammates are just More Motivated than the thousands of other great players to come through the league, when there is clear and uncontroversial evidence that Belichick and Brady are objectively better at their jobs than their peers?

Steph Curry is the greatest 3-point shooter in the history of basketball.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he's more mentally tough than Ray Allen, or has better emotional support from his family than Reggie Miller, or has stronger motivation from his coaches than Larry Bird.  It can simply mean that he's naturally better at shooting threes.  No need to invent a psychological narrative when a perfectly mundane one already exists.

If all of that explained the Patriots' ability to win the 2017 Super Bowl against presumably the second-best team in the league, when down 29-9 with 10:25 left in the fourth quarter and with a win probability of 0.7% (i.e., the Falcons were 99.3% likely to win at that point), the Patriots would've simply beaten them from the get-go instead, as opposed to mounting a highly unlikely comeback and winning.  If you can beat the hell out of a team for 10 and a half minutes of the fourth quarter and win in a highly improbable manner, why didn't you just beat the hell out of them the whole game and win 55-0 for example?

Now, that's a mere single game, and of course that game alone doesn't explain a dynasty, but that way of playing was displayed consistently (not in every game, but consistently) throughout their 20-year run, and it isn't explained by physical talent alone.  If it were explained by physical talent alone, they never would've lost a game.  They simply would've come out and bludgeoned every team they played from start to finish.

That way of playing is a team culture variable, not a team talent variable.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2022, 03:57:30 am »

If all of that explained the Patriots' ability to win the 2017 Super Bowl against presumably the second-best team in the league, when down 29-9 with 10:25 left in the fourth quarter and with a win probability of 0.7% (i.e., the Falcons were 99.3% likely to win at that point), the Patriots would've simply beaten them from the get-go instead, as opposed to mounting a highly unlikely comeback and winning.  If you can beat the hell out of a team for 10 and a half minutes of the fourth quarter and win in a highly improbable manner, why didn't you just beat the hell out of them the whole game and win 55-0 for example?
That's not how talent works, in any sport.  Setting aside the fact that the best team has lost outright to a worse team in literally every season but one, there is no reason to believe that a superior team should be in the lead from wire to wire.

I am also forced to wonder what happened to NE's "team culture" when they choked away a 21-3 lead to the Colts in the 2006 AFC Championship game.  If we are to ascribe such importance to individual games, what is your explanation for that one?

Quote
If it were explained by physical talent alone, they never would've lost a game.  They simply would've come out and bludgeoned every team they played from start to finish.
Again: this is not how talent works; you can have just superior enough talent to win a record 6 titles in 18 years without winning literally every game.  "Talent" is not some sort of on/off switch where either a) you literally do not trail in ANY game for 18 straight years or b) your wins are due to something other than talent.
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Dolfanalyst
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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2022, 07:35:34 am »

That's not how talent works, in any sport.  Setting aside the fact that the best team has lost outright to a worse team in literally every season but one, there is no reason to believe that a superior team should be in the lead from wire to wire.

I am also forced to wonder what happened to NE's "team culture" when they choked away a 21-3 lead to the Colts in the 2006 AFC Championship game.  If we are to ascribe such importance to individual games, what is your explanation for that one?
Again: this is not how talent works; you can have just superior enough talent to win a record 6 titles in 18 years without winning literally every game.  "Talent" is not some sort of on/off switch where either a) you literally do not trail in ANY game for 18 straight years or b) your wins are due to something other than talent.

For me the matter comes down to this:

1) What the Patriots did in the 2017 Super Bowl reflects an emotional variable, not a physical talent variable.  The Patriots didn't "flip a switch" on physical talent in the fourth quarter -- they flipped a switch on something emotional within them.  The Patriots didn't suddenly get "more talented" in the fourth quarter of that game -- talent doesn't vary from quarter to quarter in a football game.  Emotion does, however!

2) That wasn't a mere one-game phenomenon for them -- that was something they did routinely and consistently throughout their 20-year run.  There may have been variation in it, as there is in virtually all things, but they nonetheless displayed that at a level overall that distinguished them significantly from the rest of the league during that period.  They varied at a higher level with regard to that variable than did the rest of the league.

3) Given the consistency over 20 years in their ability in that regard, that suggests an organizational culture variable was at play -- a "who we are" in the locker room that could be drawn upon when necessary and fuel those sorts of emotional responses.

4) That culture was one of selflessness -- all for one and one for all.  The drive to give 110% of oneself in the name of winning as a team.

5) The cornerstone of that culture of selflessness was Tom Brady -- the 20-year mainstay at the most important position on the field, and the player who exhibited that selflessness poignantly by sacrificing his own income to essentially "pay" other players to help the team win.  An incredible act of team leadership that functioned as the cornerstone of the team culture.  When Brady is essentially "paying" other players to help the team win, there is no player who will feel comfortable giving less effort than Tom Brady.  And again if Brady's effort is stellar, and of course it was, well then so is the entire team's.  Leadership in a nutshell, and the effect of that on an entire team culture.  Extremely powerful.

6) The power of that variable elevated their performance as a team from the level of very good to the level of dynasty -- a team that performed consistently at an extremely high level for a very long period of time.  Rather than being a team whose performance fluctuated more widely up and down through that period, they instead functioned at a consistently very high level throughout.  The unique and powerful team culture they experienced compensated for variation in other variables related to winning during that period and made them function at a level higher than they otherwise would have.

That's about all I have to say about this.  We can keep going round and round about it, but I'm about at the agree to disagree point.
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Tenshot13
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« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2022, 10:09:23 am »

Let me ask you again.

If this is true, why do the Patriots have such a great record in playoff games in which Brady has underperformed?
Let me ask you this...why does Belichick have such a mediocre record without Brady?
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Dolfanalyst
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« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2022, 10:28:08 am »

Watch as the Cardinals go south as a team this year with this going on -- essentially the opposite of the Brady dynamic I've outlined above and far more typical among players in the league:

https://www.nfl.com/news/kyler-murray-not-expected-to-play-for-cardinals-without-new-contract

And that'll be not only because the Cardinals are unable to pay other players as much, but because they'll have established none of the kind of selfless team culture that can be established when a player makes the kind of monetary sacrifice Brady did with the Patriots.

Now, imagine the effect it has on other players on a team when instead of clamoring for as much money as a QB can get, i.e., Murray in this instance and which is far and away the norm in the league, the elite QB rather is "paying" other players to help the team win i.e., Brady.  That's an entirely different locker room and team -- a very unique one, and the stuff of dynasties when coupled with sufficient physical talent.
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dolphins4life
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« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2022, 04:07:23 pm »

Let me ask you this...why does Belichick have such a mediocre record without Brady?

Because he is an incompetent moron. 

But this doesn't mean he was riding Brady's coattails.

There is more to football then just the coach and the quarterback
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