Gaza as it stands today.

[Dave Gray]

This is pretty indefensible.

I am supportive of Israel in general, but what they're doing there seems like ethnic cleansing, as a punishment?  As a precaution?  I don't really know.

There was a case to be made for retaliation.  There was a case to be made that this was two warring factions.  You could say that they were beating back the terrorist front.  But now?  More than 18 months later???  I don't think there's any reasonable way to look at literal starving to death children en masse and say that this is a military operation against another military force.  This is just starvation of a civilian population.

It's so bad.

Whatever grace I gave to Israel (even when I didn't give it to Netanyahu) is gone.  They need to stop and we need to stop their defense if they refuse.  It's the only card we have.

[CF DolFan]

It's not an easy situation with the Palestinians caught in the middle. As long as Hamas is embedded with them Israel is in danger. Israel could wipe them out and remove the threat but that isn't going to go over very well. I think the hope was some other Arab nations would do something to stabilize the Gaza strip but so far it hasn't happened.

As long I can remember the crazies coming out of Gaza have been killing Israeli kids by attacking things like buses and nightclubs. This music festival was just the latest circumstance. I can't even imagine living under that kind of constant threat.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I will agree it has dragged on too long. 

But we are still in phase 1- get the hostages back.

Until every single hostage is returned that should be the only concern.  Once that is done we can discuss humanitarian aid, scaling down military operations, rebuilding etc. 

Hamas not Israel controls the timeline. 

The taking and keeping of the hostages is the only indefensible thing happening in Gaza. 

[Dave Gray]

Until every single hostage is returned that should be the only concern.

This is the statement where I wholeheartedly disagree and this is where Israel has lost the plot.

Two things can be and are true.  Hamas taking and keeping hostages is 100% unacceptable.  But those civilians aren't doing that.  Those are rich people with influence that aren't among those being punished.

Starving kids doesn't help anyone get anything back.  Also, these kids, these families in Gaza aren't Hamas.  ...they are just kids.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

This is the statement where I wholeheartedly disagree and this is where Israel has lost the plot.

Two things can be and are true.  Hamas taking and keeping hostages is 100% unacceptable.  But those civilians aren't doing that.  Those are rich people with influence that aren't among those being punished.

Starving kids doesn't help anyone get anything back.  Also, these kids, these families in Gaza aren't Hamas.  ...they are just kids.

There was widespread parting and celebration in Gaza on Oct 7.  So while not everyone participated in the murder of my friend and her family the vast majority of the "civilians" celebrated her murder.   

Some of these people surprised by the response of Israel now regret the Oct 7 attack.  It needs to be more.  It took 2 atomic bombs for Japan to decide that Pearl Harbor wasn't a good idea  The population of Gaza has to decide that 1) Oct 7 wasn't good idea and must never happen again   2) River to Sea is never going to happen. 3) Support having a government that wants to work with Israel for peace.  Israel should not take their foot off the gas until all three items are met. It is what we demanded of Germany and Japan.   Israel having a ceasefire without a peace is useless for Israel. 

 

[Dave Gray]

It's very unfortunate that you feel that way, as it makes me feel like I have to abandon that allyship in this regard.  I don't think that Israel's actions against civilians are acceptable.

I have defended the US's propping up of a Democratic ally in the region with money and weapons, but with the understanding that it was for defense...not for whatever this is.  If these actions which essentially amounts to famine is considered defense, then count me out.  Netanyahu isn't acting in good faith.  He doesn't want peace.

Stop aid to Israel entirely, if that's what it means.  I certainly didn't intend to sign up for this.  I'm sorry you lost friends, but your position doesn't seem like you; you aren't thinking clearly.

[CF DolFan]

It's very unfortunate that you feel that way, as it makes me feel like I have to abandon that allyship in this regard.  I don't think that Israel's actions against civilians are acceptable.

I have defended the US's propping up of a Democratic ally in the region with money and weapons, but with the understanding that it was for defense...not for whatever this is.  If these actions which essentially amounts to famine is considered defense, then count me out.  Netanyahu isn't acting in good faith.  He doesn't want peace.

Stop aid to Israel entirely, if that's what it means.  I certainly didn't intend to sign up for this.  I'm sorry you lost friends, but your position doesn't seem like you; you aren't thinking clearly.

To me it doesn't seems like you are not thinking clearly. You are looking at it form a position of comfort while he is looking at it from the victims stand-point. No one is upset when the father of a female rqpe victim retaliates on the perpetrator. This is kind of how I see it.

I've told this story before but I used to work with an Muslim engineer. He and I debated many hours about the Quran, Bible and Jews. One thing was clear in that he did not see anything wrong with them attacking Isalie kids in nightclubs and public because they had no chance against Israel's military. Obviously nothing has changed in the last 30 years. It's also hard for us Americans to wrap our heads on the concept of a people who think it's more of honor to die killing Jews and gentiles than to work towards peace.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Stop aid to Israel entirely, if that's what it means.  I certainly didn't intend to sign up for this.  I'm sorry you lost friends, but your position doesn't seem like you; you aren't thinking clearly.

My position towards Gaza and Hamas is very consistent with my position towards Afghanistan and the Taliban twenty years ago.  Civilians suffered in that conflict too.  The difference between the two is on 9/11 the entire world rallied behind the US. For 10/7 almost immediately the focus was on protecting Gazans with almost zero regard for the dead and captured Israelis.  Nobody was posting fake AI images of starving Afgans.  (While there are food shortages, there is no famine in Gaza, hence the need for fake AI images) And while there was some criticism of how the US conducted the war in Afghanistan most of that was tactical issues not, "oh my god we can have people who cheered on 9/11 suffer as we hunt down Osama and his men.  It would be better to have Osama escape justice then harm a civilian that is chanting Death to America or its equivalent From the River to the Sea.  

And while I am not a fan of Netanyahu I actually consider him a better leader than "W".  My biggest criticism of each of them is the same, W for not putting 100% in to capturing Osama and going on a side quest in Iraq, and Netanyahu's side quest with Iran.

[Spider-Dan]

Hoodie's position seems to be shared by the majority of the Israeli electorate.  And this is a major reason for the conditions in Gaza today: not only do the Israeli voters approve, many of them think Israel hasn't gone far enough (as Hoodie said, "it needs to be more").

Comparing Israel's response to 10/7 and the US response to 9/11 requires a bit more detail:

1) The US did not intentionally facilitate the starvation of tens of thousands of Afghani civilians (including thousands of children) as a "necessary component of their war against the Taliban."  (Remember, a claim being made here is that Israel should be doing more than they are.)
2) Whatever sympathy Israel had after 10/7 was quickly squandered by their decisions on how to prosecute the war in Gaza (see point 1).  This is not dissimilar to how worldwide support for the US after 9/11 was squandered by our subsequent decision to invade Iraq without justification.
3) The decades-long apartheid state in Gaza and the West Bank exacerbates both of the preceding problems.  Israel faced lots of international criticism for this prior to 10/7, and - like the US in Afghanistan - could have prosecuted the Gaza War in a way that built on international sympathy; e.g. by building an international coalition as the US did for Afghanistan.  Instead, Netanyahu decided to prosecute the war in a way that maximizes the Likud Party's domestic political advantage.  Again, there are analogs here to Bush's decision to invade Iraq.
4) The relevance of whether some Palestinians were cheering after 10/7 is dubious; Jennifer Capriati requested "Bombs Over Baghdad" to be played as her warmup song before a tennis tournament, less than a week after the US invasion of Iraq.  (This is to say nothing of Trump's claim that "thousands of people in New Jersey" were cheering after 9/11.)

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

1) The US did not intentionally facilitate the starvation of tens of thousands of Afghani civilians (including thousands of children) as a "necessary component of their war against the Taliban."  

Baby formula is being shipped into Gaza.  What this article fails to mention is that people can't bring large quantities of powder from an unknown source because Hamas and others have repeatedly labeled explosive materials as baby formula. 

This article might as well have been written by the Onion with a headline, TSA's policy is designed as a deliberate attempt to cause mass deaths by dehydration with the liquid ban. 

The Conventions only work if both sides abide by them.  If one side uses Ambulances to smuggle weapons you can't expect the other side not to inspect the ambulances.  If one side will smuggle TNT in containers labeled baby formula you can't expect the other side not to limit the importation to trusted sources. 

[Spider-Dan]

To say that American doctors cannot bring baby formula into Gaza because "Hamas labels explosives as baby formula" is to intentionally facilitate the starving of children.  In this case, the reason Israel provides for their intentional starving of children is that the prospect of American doctors bringing "baby formula" into Gaza represents what Israel considers an unacceptable risk.  In contrast, starving Palestinian babies represents an acceptable risk.

As I see it, you already made your position clear: until every single hostage is returned, humanitarian aid (e.g. food) should not be a concern.  The logical consequence of such a position is that Palestinian children should and will continue to starve until Hamas returns all hostages.  So it's pretty pointless to argue that "baby formula might be dangerous explosives" while simultaneously arguing that Israel is completely within their right to starve everyone in Gaza (where "there was widespread partying and celebration after 10/7") until Hamas gives up every single hostage.

It is worth mentioning that this in no way resembles the manner in which the United States (and its allies) prosecuted the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

To say that American doctors cannot bring baby formula into Gaza because "Hamas labels explosives as baby formula" is to intentionally facilitate the starving of children.  In this case, the reason Israel provides for their intentional starving of children is that the prospect of American doctors bringing "baby formula" into Gaza represents what Israel considers an unacceptable risk.  In contrast, starving Palestinian babies represents an acceptable risk.

The intentional act was done by Hamas.  By using medical supplies and baby food to smuggle weapons they knew that Israel would be forced to either allow the uninterrupted flow of weapons or Israel would have to limit baby food and medical supplies to verified sources.

[Spider-Dan]

No one is "forcing" Israel to remove baby formula from the luggage of American doctors.  That is a choice on Israel's part.

"Look what you made me do" is not a convincing rationale for committing war crimes.  And collective punishment of innocent civilians - a tactic you have endorsed in this thread "until every single hostage is returned" - is absolutely a war crime.

[Fau Teixeira]

It's Genocide as punishment

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

No one is "forcing" Israel to remove baby formula from the luggage of American doctors.  That is a choice on Israel's part.

There other option is to allow the free flow of weapons to people who target Israeli citizens.  You seem very concerned with the well being of Gazans and completely unconcerned with Israeli citizens well being. Israel choose is to prioritize the safety of its own citizens as would most countries do in conflicts.   Hamas chooses to target Israeli citizens while insuring as many uninvolved Gazan's are harmed as possible.