Gaza as it stands today.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Not necessarily, but I understand it.

I mean....it's really just a simple belief that in the modern world, if you wage a war on a region, especially in cases like this where you're not fighting an army, but an idea, that you have a reasonable responsibility to mitigate civilian suffering/loss.  This not only doesn't seem to do that, but it seems intentional, being used as punishment from Netanyahu, who I think is a bad person, acting in bad faith.


It's very possible that the US removing assistance will cause Israel to lash out.  In that case, at least we won't be aiding in it.  That's a little bit of "look what you made me do" that Spider was talking about.  I don't think it's appropriate for Israel to indiscriminately continue to cause the starvation death of civilian children.  I don't think that position is so far out there.  The bargaining chip that the US has is to withhold assistance if they do not comply, so I think it appropriate to use that chip.

Not lash out, but Israel uses precision munitions to minimize collateral damage.  (the opposite of what they are falsely accused of) take away the precision munitions and they will still destroy the intended target (a lot more other stuff as well)

They are NOT starving the population.  The images of "starving children" are a mixture of children with birth defects, AI and pictures taken in Yemen. Yes, I have seen the video, mom not only doesn't look malnourished she looks like she is overweight.  The child has a genetic disease. 

I am not saying there aren't times people miss a meal or two, but there is no famine or starvation.  If there was you wouldn't see a single starving child non-starving adults. Most photos out of Gaza show people that are not malnourished. 

[Spider-Dan]

Israel is not targeting civilian, however civilians are often in the way.  Ending US support for Israel would likely make the situation worse for the people of Gaza  If the US stopped sending Israel precision weapons, Israel would have two choices: end the operation or switch to gravity bombs and artillery.  I think we both know that Israel would choose the latter and that would increase not decrease the collateral damage.

Israel has one of the most sophisticated intelligence operations in the world.  Their screening is far more thorough than our TSA, yet somehow they don't need to confiscate every container of baby formula that flies in to Tel Aviv.

The destruction, suffering, and needless killing that is going on in Gaza is precisely because the Israeli voters wish it to be so.  Like you have repeatedly stated in this thread, they see Palestinian civilians as collaborators who deserve whatever suffering is inflicted on them. (but they're also insisting that there isn't any real suffering actually happening in Gaza?  which is weird)

I believe this mindset is a specific result of Netanyahu's political strategy.  Like Trump, Netanyahu has faced serious criminal charges and needed to win elections to stay out of prison.  10/7 gave him the perfect excuse to gin up hatred against Palestinians among the Israeli electorate.  It is the equivalent of Bush hypothetically choosing to demonize all Muslims after 9/11, because doing so would have helped Republicans get more votes.  Netanyahu is incredibly corrupt, and he has cynically used 10/7 as an excuse to demagogue Gaza in order to consolidate his own political power base.

As I said at the beginning, the biggest problem is that Hoodie's (original?) position is closer to that of the mainstream centrist Israeli voter than anyone else in this thread: if every single Palestinian child has to starve to death before Hamas releases the last hostage, then so be it.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Israel has one of the most sophisticated intelligence operations in the world.  Their screening is far more thorough than our TSA, yet somehow they don't need to confiscate every container of baby formula that flies in to Tel Aviv.

Not at all relevant. 

It wasn't confiscated at an airport.  It was a checkpoint entering a war zone.  Not the same set up for screening.

While a parent with a baby is unlikely to have baby formula questioned by TSA, someone without a baby is going to raise red flags. 

Israel doesn't just assess the item but the person who is carrying it.  A person or group that is a risk of collaborating with Hamas is going to have anything that is conceivably a weapon confiscated unlike someone who is not a risk for smuggling.   

 

[Fau Teixeira]

They are NOT starving the population.  The images of "starving children" are a mixture of children with birth defects, AI and pictures taken in Yemen. Yes, I have seen the video, mom not only doesn't look malnourished she looks like she is overweight.  The child has a genetic disease. 

I am not saying there aren't times people miss a meal or two, but there is no famine or starvation.  If there was you wouldn't see a single starving child non-starving adults. Most photos out of Gaza show people that are not malnourished.

on a scale of 1 (trump level lie about something petty) to 10 (confirmed with complete certainty)
i believe your opinion here about a 3.

Is it possible that people with a vested interest exaggerate, yes
Is it possible that that pro israel media minimize atrocities, also yes.

In my view, more likely than not, there are war crimes being committed against the population of gaza.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

on a scale of 1 (trump level lie about something petty) to 10 (confirmed with complete certainty)
i believe your opinion here about a 3.

Is it possible that people with a vested interest exaggerate, yes
Is it possible that that pro israel media minimize atrocities, also yes.

In my view, more likely than not, there are war crimes being committed against the population of gaza.

You don't need to take my word on it, just apply a little bit of critical thinking: 

If there is a picture of mom who is fat holding a child claiming Israel is starving her child ask why is she so well fed?

If there is widespread famine in Gaza why do all the pictures and videos out of Gaza that aren't specifically targeted to convince you of starvation show people who don't look malnourished?

And yes, there are war crimes being committed against the people of Gaza, the vast majority of them by Hamas.  Stealing food shipments to create artificial shortages, stealing fuel from hospital generators, firing on Israeli troops from behind civilians etc.
 

[Spider-Dan]

It wasn't confiscated at an airport.  It was a checkpoint entering a war zone.  Not the same set up for screening.

While a parent with a baby is unlikely to have baby formula questioned by TSA, someone without a baby is going to raise red flags.

That's the point: when this American doctor (without a baby) landed at the airport with a suitcase full of baby formula, Israel's world-class screening cleared him to take it into the country.  But then when he tries to bring it into Gaza, suddenly he is a potential Hamas agent smuggling fake formula. What's he going to do, blow up buildings in Gaza that have already been bombed into rubble?

The Israeli government wants Palestinians to starve to punish them because they deserve it, as you have succinctly explained.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

That's the point: when this American doctor (without a baby) landed at the airport with a suitcase full of baby formula, Israel's world-class screening cleared him to take it into the country.  But then when he tries to bring it into Gaza, suddenly he is a potential Hamas agent smuggling fake formula. What's he going to do, blow up buildings in Gaza that have already been bombed into rubble?

The Israeli government wants Palestinians to starve to punish them because they deserve it, as you have succinctly explained.

'

No, he did not fly to Israel he flew to Jordan.  Where we would most certainly have had opportunities to meet with Hamas agents after existing the plane.

Add in whatever pre-screening Israel did on this individual probably discovered he was hostile towards Israel. 

I don't know for certain but I suspect a person who had multiple humanitarian missions to Yemen, Sudan and Ukraine and whose social media presence indicates that they blame Hamas to a greater extent than Israel for the humanitarian issues in Gaza would raise less suspicion than someone who only cares about Gaza and the West Bank and who is hostile towards Israel. 

[Spider-Dan]

Fair enough; I thought the doctor in question flew into Israel first, but apparently these medical missions are required to travel from Jordan through Israel, as Israel has also prohibited medical mission entry from Egypt into Gaza since May of last year (here's a link that bypasses the paywall to the full article from earlier).

However, the restrictions are not limited to "suspicious baby formula":

Baby formula is not the only item viewed with suspicion at the Allenby Bridge. British orthopedic surgeon Graeme Groom, whose speciality is, along with anesthesiology, one of the most sought in Gaza, said he was "not allowed to bring anything with him" for the first time in May, upon his fourth mission to Gaza in 20 months of war. No scalpel, no staples, no circular external fixators used to stabilize fractures and thereby "reduce the risk of infection and, therefore, amputation."

I don't know for certain but I suspect a person who had multiple humanitarian missions to Yemen, Sudan and Ukraine and whose social media presence indicates that they blame Hamas to a greater extent than Israel for the humanitarian issues in Gaza would raise less suspicion than someone who only cares about Gaza and the West Bank and who is hostile towards Israel.

Would you have the same skepticism about a person who criticized the Bush Administration and it's invasion of Iraq trying to enter the United States in 2006?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Would you have the same skepticism about a person who criticized the Bush Administration and it's invasion of Iraq trying to enter the United States in 2006?

Yes, I would be skeptical of people known to be hostile to the USA from traveling here.  Be even more skeptical of why they wanted to travel to Iraq in 2006.  Majority of folks heading to Iraq that were hostile to the USA were members of ISIS. 

[Spider-Dan]

Majority of folks heading to Iraq that were hostile to the USA were members of ISIS.

So anyone who criticized the invasion of Iraq is defined as "hostile to the USA"?  If that's the standard, by 2008 the majority of Americans were hostile to the USA.

In that case, how do you feel about people who are hostile to the current US administration?  By this logic, if our TSA starts combing through social media and shaking down international travelers at airports who have criticized Trump, that's just fine.  Sorry, you can't bring your cellphone into this country because terrorists use cellphones.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

So anyone who criticized the invasion of Iraq is defined as "hostile to the USA"?  If that's the standard, by 2008 the majority of Americans were hostile to the USA.

In that case, how do you feel about people who are hostile to the current US administration?  By this logic, if our TSA starts combing through social media and shaking down international travelers at airports who have criticized Trump, that's just fine.  Sorry, you can't bring your cellphone into this country because terrorists use cellphones.

As I stated earlier, I am suspicious of the motives of anyone who wants to an active war zone.

[Spider-Dan]

You are effectively saying that you find the very idea of humanitarian aid to Palestinians to be suspect.
This is, at least, consistent with the notion that they deserve whatever suffering they may be experiencing.

[CF DolFan]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14969297/Majority-aid-packages-Gaza-not-reaching-targets.html
Revealed: Most aid sent to Gaza is intercepted by Hamas or desperate civilians before it reaches its target

Figures show that of the 29,885 aid pallets collected for delivery in Gaza between mid-May and last weekend, 25,703 were taken en route.

[Spider-Dan]

Revealed: Most aid sent to Gaza is intercepted by Hamas or desperate civilians

I am not sure what point we are supposed to take from "Food taken by starving people before it reaches intended destination."

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Spider let me see if I can help you out with this, here are the facts as we know them:

1) Approximately one and half times as much food as was consumed by Gazans before Oct 7 is entering  Gaza is entering daily.

2) Despite this there are pockets of hunger inside Gaza.

3) Hamas and other militants are seizing the vast majority of the food before it reaches the intended population.

4) Hamas and its stogies absolutely LOVE to claim a famine to paint Israel as evil and the everyone in Gaza including those who committed the atrocities of Oct 7th as poor innocent victims.  

So now lets move from the facts to the analysis:

Hamas is purposefully stealing the food to starve the people of Gaza so they can falsely accuse Israel of genocide.