Gaza as it stands today.

[CF DolFan]

I am not sure what point we are supposed to take from "Food taken by starving people before it reaches intended destination."

The fact you put more emphasis on "desperate people" than Hamas stealing the food is kind of revealing ... especially considering you don't know how much of that is by civilians. They sure as heck aren't pushing Hamas out of the way to get it.

The "destination" was determined in order to allow the food to be distributed to ALL desperate people but apparently that isn't good enough for you as long as Hamas gets their fair share.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

but apparently that isn't good enough for you as long as Hamas gets their fair share.

Actually Hamas's fair share is zero.  A military stealing food intended for civilians is a war crime.  While Israel has some responsibility to feed the civilians in areas that it has operational control it isn't suppose to be feeding Hamas (until they become POWs)

[CF DolFan]

I agree. Anyone who has any sympathy for Hamas is evil as all they do is cause destruction and terror.

[CF DolFan]

And... neither do you.
Which makes your emphasis on "Hamas" over starving Palestinian civilians at least as revealing.

Unlike you, I'm not willing to endorse restricting food supply into Gaza because I'm dissatisfied with whatever unknown percentage Hamas may be stealing.  I am more concerned with the starving Palestinian civilians.

Hamas is the reason for their suffering no matter how much you try and blame Israel it doesn't make it true. Israel didn't kidnap and kill the Palestinian and Hamas kids and now refuse to release many of them. It was hamas and unfortunately they are causing a lot of collateral damage.

[Spider-Dan]

Hamas is the reason for their suffering no matter how much you try and blame Israel it doesn't make it true. Israel didn't kidnap and kill the Palestinian and Hamas kids and now refuse to release many of them. It was hamas and unfortunately they are causing a lot of collateral damage.

The time-honored excuse for atrocities of all kinds: "Look what you made me do"

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

It is simple.  The people of Gaza are suffering because that is what Hamas wants. Hamas wants the people of Gaza to suffer and to exaggerate that suffering.

Hamas and it allies have for 80 years been targeting Israeli children and then hiding imosques, schools and hospitals. "You can't touch us, their are civilians around."  Placing Israel in a dilemma: either allow the terrorist to escape and re-attack or harm civilians.  Too often Israel let the terrorist escape justice only to have more Israelis civilians killed than the number of civilians that would have been killed by eliminating the terrorists.   Hamas puts Israel in a lose-lose situation:  either cause Gazans to suffer or allow Hamas to kill more Israelis.   After Oct 7th the weighting of the relative options has shifted.

But the core problem isn't that when faced with the choice of risking Gazan lives vs risking Israeli lives the balance has shifted towards keeping Israel safe, but why they are in the dilemma in the first place.  And that reason is Hamas and how it operates.

Anybody with the least bit of humanity would be demanding that all the hostages be immediately and unconditionally released along with the unconditional surrender of all those responsible for the terror attacks.

The time-honored excuse for atrocities of all kinds: "Look what you made me do"

Hamas places Israel in the dilemma of either Gazan children suffering or Israeli children suffering.  And when Israel chooses to protect its own children from Hamas you accuse Israel of atrocities.   

The question shouldn't be why am I defending Israel's actions but why are you defending Hamas's tactics.   

Dave's criticisms is in good faith, but yours is starting to sound like the rhetoric of those who don't really care about the Gazan children, but whose real goal is to insure that when this conflict is over Hamas is capable of renewing its terror attacks on Israel.

[Spider-Dan]

Hoodie, only one of us is insisting that civilians (including children) morally deserve whatever suffering they are enduring.

Not once have you heard me state that Israeli civilians deserve what Hamas has done due to their support for Israel's apartheid state.
Not once have you heard me parrot bullshit Hamas propaganda that actually no civilians in Israel have been killed.
Yet here you are, uncritically repeating Netanyahu's propaganda without question, insisting that people in Gaza aren't starving because there are still some fat Palestinians while simultaneously blaming Hamas for the starvation of Gaza.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Hoodie, only one of us is insisting that civilians (including children) morally deserve whatever suffering they are enduring.

Not once have you heard me state that Israeli civilians deserve what Hamas has done due to their support for Israel's apartheid state.
Not once have you heard me parrot bullshit Hamas propaganda that actually no civilians in Israel have been killed.
Yet here you are, uncritically repeating Netanyahu's propaganda without question, insisting that people in Gaza aren't starving because there are still some fat Palestinians while simultaneously blaming Hamas for the starvation of Gaza.

I have not said that children or civilians* morally deserve it.  *In this context civilians excludes anyone who aids or assists Hamas and the other terrorists.

I know you have implied the second one, but I can't I recall you overtly stating that.   

I will concede that you have never falsely claimed no Israeli civilians have died  But then again I don't recall Hamas making that claim either.  At one point they were bragging about how many civilians they killed.

But you have repeatedly endorsed Hamas's tactics such as firing rockets from next to a daycare center and then whining Israel is destroying daycare centers when Israel blows up the rocket launcher to protect its own civilian infrastructure. 

[Spider-Dan]

I have not said that children or civilians* morally deserve it.  *In this context civilians excludes anyone who aids or assists Hamas and the other terrorists.

Ahem...

There was widespread parting and celebration in Gaza on Oct 7.  So while not everyone participated in the murder of my friend and her family the vast majority of the "civilians" celebrated her murder.

You said this as a direct response to Dave's concerns about the impact of this war on families and children.

But you have repeatedly endorsed Hamas's tactics such as firing rockets from next to a daycare center and then whining Israel is destroying daycare centers when Israel blows up the rocket launcher to protect its own civilian infrastructure.

Of course, you did not quote such a claim from me, because it never happened.

Your quotes in this thread (e.g. Israel's response "needs to be more," "If I was in charge the deal would be either return the hostages or the entire territory starves," "If there is a picture of mom who is fat holding a child claiming Israel is starving her child ask why is she so well fed?") have been outright monstrous.  And when I've asked you about the US taking a similar eliminationist approach in the post-9/11 War on Terror, you've simply ignored it.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Ahem...

If I recall correctly that was in response to a claim that most Gazan didn't support the brutal Oct 7 terror attacks.  And while I don't celebrate the death or suffering those who celebrated the murder of my friend and her family I don't weep for them either. 

[Spider-Dan]

It's borderline dishonest for you to play this "If I recall correctly" game when you can just click on the link to the post (or simply scroll up):

Hamas taking and keeping hostages is 100% unacceptable.  But those civilians aren't doing that.  Those are rich people with influence that aren't among those being punished.

Starving kids doesn't help anyone get anything back.  Also, these kids, these families in Gaza aren't Hamas.  ...they are just kids.

Your response to that post was to point out that "the vast majority" of these victims were celebrating 10/7, in an effort to morally justify their suffering.

[Denver2]

Not worth nothing but IDF soldiers testified in the Knesset that they were ordered to stop their Gaza patrols on 10/7, so maybe some rage is for Netanyahu who allowed this to happen to save his ass.

Regardless the response hasn’t been anywhere near proportional and the stated goal of Israel is the very definition of ethnic cleansing if not genocide.

[CF DolFan]

Not worth nothing but IDF soldiers testified in the Knesset that they were ordered to stop their Gaza patrols on 10/7, so maybe some rage is for Netanyahu who allowed this to happen to save his ass.

Regardless the response hasn’t been anywhere near proportional and the stated goal of Israel is the very definition of ethnic cleansing if not genocide.

What's the proportionate response if you have 50 family members still kidnapped and being raped and tortured as well as another 400 who were just outright killed? To try and set limits on someone who has been defending themselves for many, many years against actual genocide seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

Hamas and the Iranian government openly admit that destroying Israel and the US infidels are their ultimate goals and nothing less will stop them.  I'm not sure how anyone could expect anyone to accept being attacked unmerciless by people who openly want their genocide. There are a ton of rich Arab countries around there who could clean up Gaza but refuse to do it so Israel really has no other choice.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Not worth nothing but IDF soldiers testified in the Knesset that they were ordered to stop their Gaza patrols on 10/7, so maybe some rage is for Netanyahu who allowed this to happen to save his ass.

Regardless the response hasn’t been anywhere near proportional and the stated goal of Israel is the very definition of ethnic cleansing if not genocide.

Googled that yesterday after you posted it.  Couldn't find any news source i have ever heard of reporting it and the first mention of it (date wise) was an unlinked reddit post so I question if it is  accurate. 

But even if it was 100% accurate it doesn't change the fact that Hamas launched the attack.  Reminds me of the conspiracy theories that Bush knew about 9/11 and let it happen or FDR knew about Pearl in advance.  Even if FDR knew about Pearl and failed to issue a warning, the Japs still attacked our ships.  If Bush had advanced warning of the hijackings does that make the SEAL killing of Bin Ladin unjustified?

The stated goal of Israel is to eliminate Hamas and get the hostages back.