Immigrants day

[CF DolFan]

Why not make them citizens? If we can accept them, what's next for lawbreakers rights? Murderer's rights? Rapist's rights?

Before you tell me that I'm a crazy right wing bigot, answer this...WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?? Breaking the law is breaking the law. Period. If you steal a candy bar from a store, it is still a crime, and if you get caught, you will be punished. This is the only case I can think of where criminals are being worshipped by our government.

Because it's a law that liberals feel is wrong. That makes it OK to break.  Just don't say God in school if you are a teacher because then they will shoot your lawbreaking butt!

[Phishfan]

I hate to keep saying this, but it is not a right wing/left wing issue. California, Texas, Florida, & the White house are all run with Republican executives right now. It is pretty much fact that the leaders in all of these offices typically work very hard to stay popular with Latinos, so let's not say that liberals are pushing this.

Both sides have people with differing opinions, but the Republicans are definitely heading up the welcome wagon currently.

Want a specific example from recent history? Remember Elian Gonzalez? American policy has long been if Cubans make it to shore they can stay. Get picked up at sea and you have to go back. JEB Bush and the Mayor in Miami (I can't rememeber his name) both pushed to keep Elian here. Both are Republicans. It took the White House, remember those filthy Democrats Clinton & Reno, to send in federal agents to gain custody of the boy because the leaders in Florida would do nothing even after the case was ruled on. Not all Democrats agreed with the move either. Vice-President Al Gore even proposed bringing Elian's father to the US as a citizen.

Let's not politicize everything as a left and right issue, labels can be dangerous.

[Househead]

I'm pretty liberal, as people know, but the bottom line is that they are ILLEGAL immigrants and they BROKE THE LAW by coming here.  I feel action needs to be taken, one cannot condone illegality. A crime is a crime, sentimental and emotional feelings should not influence government action on the issue or justify the crime. What action needs to be taken is another story though. There is no easy solution to the problem.  That being said, put up a 30 foot electrical charged, razor-wired fence on the southern border and lay surrounding land mines. That should solve the problem (Thats a joke).

[Dave Gray]

You're right.  It's not a liberal / conservative issue.  It's also not a black and white issue like some of you are claiming.

1) The whole "a crime is a crime" thing doesn't hold water.  Slavery used to be the law here, and by blacks breaking it and fleeing, with the help of others, got that law changed.  Segregation is the same way.  It's not the same as illegal immigration, I agree, but neither is murder or rape.  All crimes are most definitely not the same, nor should they be treated that way.

2) Even though there is a point to the idea that "we shouldn't reward illegal behavior", what are you going to do?  They are here, working, and they aren't going anywhere.  It's naive to think that we'll be able to ship them all back.  It makes sense to at least have tabs on them, registered.  Plus, you can get income tax from them.

Frimp, I understand that it's a tough issue, but I don't understand your vile contempt for them.  These are not bad people.  It's like you have some kind of misplaced hatred towards them.

[Frimp]

I don't hate anyone, and I can't blame them for wanting to be here. Do it legally, and I'll welcome them in with open arms. My hostility is directed more at the polititians who don't give a damn about the opinion of everyone in the country. I'd like to see every single one of them from the president down to a town council person from a town with a population of 500 replaced if they continue giving us the finger.

Just 2 years ago, everyone was on the president about the weak borders because terrorists could get through too. Now, it seems that every polititian with the exception of a few has forgotten that for political reasons.

This cannot be compared with slavery. Slaves were brought here by force. These illegals came here on their own free will.

[CF DolFan]

I was just kidding about the liberal comment.  I see how you guys are always ganging up on Frimp and poor run_to_win and thought I'd chime in. No sense of humor around here any more.

[JVides]

My hostility is directed more at the polititians who don't give a damn about the opinion of everyone in the country. I'd like to see every single one of them from the president down to a town council person from a town with a population of 500 replaced if they continue giving us the finger.

No offense, man, but I DON'T want the President (and on down) doing what the masses want; I want him / them doing what's best for the nation.  There's a difference, and what's best for the nation is often at odds with what the public wants.

I vote for certain people because I want them to lead me, not because I want them to do my bidding.

[Frimp]

Generally, I'd agree with that, Jvides. But, I think this is a unique situation where the polititians do not have the country's best intrest on their minds.

[JVides]

Generally, I'd agree with that, Jvides. But, I think this is a unique situation where the polititians do not have the country's best intrest on their minds.

Perhaps my view is biased, as my father grew up poor in El Salvador.  He moved here (legally), joined the Air Force, educated himself, and became someone important.  He rose up the corporate ladder and became more successful than most people ever become.  He embodies the American Dream.  So, as the son of an immigrant father and an American mother, who am I to say that individuals should not have the opportunity to become what my father became?  I understand that there are differences between my father's story and those of many illegal immigrants, simply because my father came in legally.  But his fortune - blind luck - in finding a sponsor shouldn't be the only reason he was able to have a shot at the life he eventually built.  I don't think the problem is that too many immigrants are entering; the problem lies in assimilation.   

[ADeadSmitty]

You also have to consider the billions they suck out of our economy each month and send to Mexico.  The guys I knew averaged around $300/month.  If all 10,000,000 illegals send that much then it comes out to $3 BILLION per month - which shows you why illegal immigrants are Mexicos' number one export.

I'm sorry but you don't understand economics. Illegal immigrants do not "suck money" out of our economy. If they are making money, it's because they are working. They are trading their labor for wages. Their labor must be worth more to their employers than the wages they are paid, otherwise the employers wouldn't keep them around. Therefore, like any other worker, when they earn their incomes they are contributing to the economy.

By your logic, you could just as easily say that when any American works and keeps part of his income in a savings account, he is "sucking" money out of our economy.

[ADeadSmitty]

Generally, I'd agree with that, Jvides. But, I think this is a unique situation where the polititians do not have the country's best intrest on their minds.

That hardly makes it a unique situation.

[BeefStewert]

I'm sorry but you don't understand economics. Illegal immigrants do not "suck money" out of our economy. If they are making money, it's because they are working. They are trading their labor for wages. Their labor must be worth more to their employers than the wages they are paid, otherwise the employers wouldn't keep them around. Therefore, like any other worker, when they earn their incomes they are contributing to the economy.

By your logic, you could just as easily say that when any American works and keeps part of his income in a savings account, he is "sucking" money out of our economy.

Your argument is correct on a microeconomic level, but incorrect on a macroeconmic level.  It's fine that workers send currency to whatever country they want - it just shows that the dollar's strength that it has value outside of the U.S.  But illegal workers do "suck money" out of the economy becasue they still collect on goverment expenditures that they do not necessarilly contribute to.  If the cost of educating their children, paying welfare, paying healthcare (Medicaid), etc. is more than they collectively contribute in taxes, then they do "suck" money from the economy.

[Dave Gray]

Your argument is correct on a microeconomic level, but incorrect on a macroeconmic level. It's fine that workers send currency to whatever country they want - it just shows that the dollar's strength that it has value outside of the U.S. But illegal workers do "suck money" out of the economy becasue they still collect on goverment expenditures that they do not necessarilly contribute to. If the cost of educating their children, paying welfare, paying healthcare (Medicaid), etc. is more than they collectively contribute in taxes, then the do "suck" money from the economy.

The do not "suck money" on a macroeconomic level either, for this reason:

Illegal work is done for less wage than legal work.  ...therefore, US businesses or individuals that employ illegals SAVE money, which is kept in the US economy, allowing for more production.

[BeefStewert]

The do not "suck money" on a macroeconomic level either, for this reason:

Illegal work is done for less wage than legal work.  ...therefore, US businesses or individuals that employ illegals SAVE money, which is kept in the US economy, allowing for more production.

Totally agreed.  So GDP is defined as Y=C+I+G+NE.  Lower prices raises consumption, Investment, and Net Exports exactly as you say.  What I am saying is that the increased population without taxation also increases governement expenditures.  So illegal immigrants both add to the economy and suck from it.  The question is do they add more than they remove?

[Dave Gray]

Totally agreed. So GDP is defined as Y=C+I+G+NE. Lower prices raises consumption, Investment, and Net Exports exactly as you say. What I am saying is that the increased population without taxation also increases governement expenditures. So illegal immigrants both add to the economy and suck from it. The question is do they add more than they remove?

True.  By allowing them to work legally, you can also tax their income.