Does anyone miss the NBA?

[Spider-Dan]

Possibly because Magic STILL took over games. He did it by involving his team mates more and playing defense.

Of all Magic's qualities to praise (and there are a lot), his defense is not one of them.  He was not a standout defender and never made an All-Defensive first or second team.  And you can't blame it on the team he was on; as a Laker, Kareem made 6 All-Defensive teams, Michael Cooper made 8, and A.C. Green made one.

All of this is particularly ironic given that LBJ has made the All-Defensive first team the last three years running.  If you want to talk about defense, LBJ is already CLEARLY better at that than Magic ever was.

Magic took over by getting triple doubles; LBJ gets those too, but one of his "triple" stats is often turnovers.

He didn't have a double-digit turnover game in the entire playoffs this year.  I would hazard a guess that for every one of LBJ's double-digit turnover games (if they even exist), he has at least 10 triple-doubles.

Don't compare LBJ to Magic; he couldn't carry Johnson's jock. Or Bird's. Never mind MJ's.

No, LBJ is not as good as three of the five best players in the history of basketball.  Is this some sort of knock on him?

The point is, he is better suited to be a Magic-style player (i.e. facilitator) than a Jordan- or Bird-style player (i.e. scorer).  Is he as good as Magic?  Hell no.  But if he is going to pick a player to try to pattern himself after, Magic is a better choice than Bird.

Keep in mind everything LBJ does- every single thing- was already done by the three guys I just mentioned in the eighties, and they did it against better competition without resorting to teaming up together.

Their front offices were drafting and trading for HOFers in their primes.  They had no need to "team up."

Furthermore, for the nth time, LBJ is not the only player committing this crime.  Virtually all of today's elite players either a) already colluded to join a team with their buddy or b) are openly colluding with other players to time their free agencies so that they can team up.

So again, why all the hate for LBJ but nothing to say about the rest of his peers?

[Sunstroke]

He didn't have a double-digit turnover game in the entire playoffs this year.  I would hazard a guess that for every one of LBJ's double-digit turnover games (if they even exist), he has at least 10 triple-doubles.

With the emphasis on "at least" in that sentence... For his career, LBJ has 29 triple-doubles and one 10-turnover game. The 10-turnover game came on March 28, 2005, LBJ's second season. He had 10 turnovers in an overtime 1-point win over New Orleans. He also had 20 of his game-high 44 points in the 4th quarter and OT, when he pretty much put the Cavs on his back.


10-Turnover game:  http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250328003

Triple double list: http://www.sportscity.com/nba/nba-all-time-triple-doubles-181/

[EKnight]

Did you ignore the two previous posts I had ripping the other teams who did this? As for the guess about his double digit TO games, in his playoff history he has six triple-doubles and 2 games of 10 turnovers. Let's see.... Not a mathematician, but that's NOT a 10:1 ratio.  Stop with all this LeBron love. NOT every elite player is doing what he did. Dallas didn't do that and they beat the Heat. That should say something. -EK

[JVides]

So, hold on a second.  If Miami had traded for LeBron and Bosh, then it would be OK?  It's only because these players had the audacity to do what they KNEW their front offices would never do for them?  No one in their prime was going to Cleveland to play with LeBron at a discount (like they used to for Chicago and do now for the Lakers).  LeBron did for himself what his front office could not do for him.  He could've stayed and had the honor of a carrer's worth of Antwan Jamison / Mo Williams or he could team up with another top 5 guy and another top 25 guy in Miami and play in 5 championship series.  That doesn't make him weak or a wuss, it makes him a sensible person.

[Sunstroke]

...Stop with all this LeBron love...

Gladly...about 5 seconds after you stop with all the Lebron-hate.

[EKnight]

With the emphasis on "at least" in that sentence... For his career, LBJ has 29 triple-doubles and one 10-turnover game. The 10-turnover game came on March 28, 2005, LBJ's second season. He had 10 turnovers in an overtime 1-point win over New Orleans. He also had 20 of his game-high 44 points in the 4th quarter and OT, when he pretty much put the Cavs on his back.

Not sure where you got your stats, but LBJ has 2 10 TO games in the playoffs ALONE.
May 6, 2008 vs Boston 2-18 from the field, 12 points, 10 TOs
April 25, 2006 vs Washington 7-25 from the field, 26 points, 10 TOs.

-EK

[Sunstroke]

^^^ You already said that two posts ago...I applaud your repetition.

I was looking at regular season games for the stats I posted...and I got my stats by going through each season's game logs on ESPN.

[EKnight]

I'm not sure how this whole thing even turned into "I hate/love LBJ." I don't care about LBJ one way or another. I think the NBA sucks because of the BS that the Heat, Celtics, and Knicks did. The WHOLE NBA. The integrity of the game is shit because of it. For some reason, even after I keep posting that, people want to focus in on the "Heat" part of the equation. Believe whatever you want. The entire league isn't doing this stuff. 3/30 teams is not the entire league; it's 10%. You know what the entire league IS doing? Well, listen up. The reason there is no season right now is the same reason I hate watching it anymore. The greedy ass players believe that they "deserve" more than 50% of the profits. WTF? How much money do these guys need to make? Selfish, self-absorbed, arrogant, whining twenty year old toddlers. Any member of this board who disagrees with that- go to your job, tell the boss you demand half of the company's profits and see how that works out for you. 10% of this country can't get a job and these guys are bitching about getting even MORE money that most of us will make in our lifetime. And I'm supposed to miss this sport and feel like my life is somehow emptier without it? -EK

[Spider-Dan]

Did you ignore the two previous posts I had ripping the other teams who did this? As for the guess about his double digit TO games, in his playoff history he has six triple-doubles and 2 games of 10 turnovers. Let's see.... Not a mathematician, but that's NOT a 10:1 ratio.

So for his career, he has 29 triple-doubles and a whopping THREE double-digit turnover games.  You're right, 29:3 is not even close to 10:1.

And for the record: you said (emphasis added), "Magic took over by getting triple doubles; LBJ gets those too, but one of his "triple" stats is often turnovers."  In the three games in which LBJ had double-digit TOs, he has NEVER had a triple-double, even if you include turnovers.

So basically, your statement that one of his triple-double stats is "often" turnovers is an out-and-out falsehood.  It has LITERALLY NEVER HAPPENED.

[Spider-Dan]

The entire league isn't doing this stuff. 3/30 teams is not the entire league; it's 10%.

The majority of the elite players in the league are either doing it, planning to do it, or talking about how they'd like to do it.

The reason there is no season right now is the same reason I hate watching it anymore. The greedy ass players believe that they "deserve" more than 50% of the profits. WTF? How much money do these guys need to make?

So your problem with the NBA is that... the owners aren't making enough money?

Any member of this board who disagrees with that- go to your job, tell the boss you demand half of the company's profits and see how that works out for you. 10% of this country can't get a job and these guys are bitching about getting even MORE money that most of us will make in our lifetime.

I'm guessing that almost every employed member of this board would be free to quit their current job (at any time) and be hired by another employer willing to pay them more money.  Gee, I wonder what would happen if an NBA player tried that?

Please do not try to compare the jobs of everyday citizens to those of professional athletes.  As discouraging as it may be to hear, your skillset is not in the top 0.0000001% of the world at what you do, and you aren't personally generating tens of millions of dollars of income for your company.

[EKnight]

It literally was hyperbole. I realize that it is hard to distinguish sarcasm in print. If it eases your mind, I will happily say that I mispoke. It STILL doesn't change my point of view on what these three teams did. Are you so fixated on one tree that you are unable to see any of the rest of the forrest? I seriously don't care one way or another about Lebron; I was laughing just as hard at Wade and Bosh when Dallas beat them. I was laughing just as hard when the Knicks failed to trade for Chris Paul (rats! foiled their big three!), and when the Celtics got bumped in the playoffs this year, although since it was the Miami Cheat that swept them, that one was bittersweet.

In response to your last post, NO the majority are not. Believe whatever you need to get sleep at night. They're not. 3/30.....3/30. Regarding my "skill-set"? Really? You know nothing about me. I'm premed and will make low to middle six figures with my "skill-set." I'm also a three time national powerlifting champion with a documented drug-free bench press of 420 pounds at a body weight of 143, and 370 at a body weight of 132. I know plenty about athletes, thanks. -EK

[mecadonzilla]

Hey folks.  You need to know your shit before you try to correct someone else. 

Both Quitness and Bosh were traded to Miami.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/418470-lebron-james-miami-gave-up-to-much-to-sign-lebron-to-the-team
http://www.scoresreport.com/2010/06/30/report-chris-bosh-traded-to-miami/

Both were free agents, however, they were both signed by their old teams and traded to Miami in sign & trade deals.  Not only could they sign for more money under the Larry Bird rule, but their former teams would at least get something back in return instead of losing them outright as free agents.  The NBA has/had wacky CBA rules where crazy stuff like this happens.

As for the rest of it:

My original contention was that Quitness showed his weakness in forcing the trade and then the weakness was shown again in the Finals where he was too afraid to shoot or drive in the 4th quarter.  Frankly, the evidence rests on my side.  We all saw him pass up wide open shot after wide open shot.  Hell, entire post game and analysis shows were devoted to "what happened to Lebron."  The Mavs and Deshaun Stevenson got into his head, rattled his cage and made him afraid to take action.  His character flaw that first showed in the collusion to go to Miami reared its head again when it mattered most in the Finals.  He couldn't take the "Heat" in any either scenario and ran away to hide in Wade's shadow.

Supposed all time greats do not act this way.

[Spider-Dan]

Both were free agents, however, they were both signed by their old teams and traded to Miami in sign & trade deals.  Not only could they sign for more money under the Larry Bird rule, but their former teams would at least get something back in return instead of losing them outright as free agents.  The NBA has/had wacky CBA rules where crazy stuff like this happens.

Your point is technically true but functionally irrelevant, in the same sense that I could claim that LeBron technically didn't choose to go to Miami at all... he just went where Cleveland traded him.

At the end of the day, for all practical purposes of this discussion, LBJ, Bosh, Garnett, Allen, Amare, and Carmelo all chose to team up with erstwhile rivals to get a ring.  Quibbling over the precise legal mechanisms of how they did it doesn't really change anything.

My original contention was that Quitness showed his weakness in forcing the trade and then the weakness was shown again in the Finals where he was too afraid to shoot or drive in the 4th quarter.  Frankly, the evidence rests on my side.  We all saw him pass up wide open shot after wide open shot.

It's not his team, remember?

How can you criticize him for wimping out and going to another team to be a second-fiddle, and then criticize him for being a second-fiddle?

The Heat were supposed to be Wade's team.  Where was Wade at?  Why did LBJ outscore Wade in the elimination game?  All of your vitriol should be directed towards the man who was supposed to lead the team.

He's not going to be a scorer that takes over games.  He already admitted as much when he went to Miami to take the role of facilitator.  So why are you still bashing him for not being a scorer that takes over games?

[mecadonzilla]

Your point is technically true but functionally irrelevant, in the same sense that I could claim that LeBron technically didn't choose to go to Miami at all... he just went where Cleveland traded him.

Because facts matter.  More than one person in this thread tried to correct me, including yourself, I believe. 

How can you criticize him for wimping out and going to another team to be a second-fiddle, and then criticize him for being a second-fiddle?

The Heat were supposed to be Wade's team.  Where was Wade at?  Why did LBJ outscore Wade in the elimination game?  All of your vitriol should be directed towards the man who was supposed to lead the team.

He's not going to be a scorer that takes over games.  He already admitted as much when he went to Miami to take the role of facilitator.  So why are you still bashing him for not being a scorer that takes over games?

His team wanted and needed him to step up and score points like he did in the first half.  In the 2nd half, he just stropped trying in several games of the series.  A champion does what's needed.  Quitness did not.  Wade is responsible also, of course, but at least he showed heart and determination throughout the entire series.  Plus, as someone who already has a championship in his pocket, Wade at least has shown that he is not afraid of crunch time. 

It's so rare that you see someone who lives his life in the spotlight, flat out shrink away from that light when it burns the brightest...but we all saw what happened and it will be his legacy until he can prove otherwise.

[Spider-Dan]

Because facts matter.  More than one person in this thread tried to correct me, including yourself, I believe.

OK, so since facts are what matter:  LeBron didn't actually choose where to go at all, and merely reported to the team that he was traded to.  Your entire line of argument is nullified.  Q.E.D.

I mean, if you want to play the nitpicking game.

His team wanted and needed him to step up and score points like he did in the first half.

He's not a scorer.  That's why he's in Miami, remember?

I find it amazing that people want to pile on LBJ for not doing Wade's job, and yet you rarely, if ever, hear any criticism of Wade for his no-show (for his role) in the series.