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Poll
Question: Do you think Zimmerman is
Guilty   -5 (25%)
Not Guilty   -2 (10%)
Self Defense   -1 (5%)
You don't know enough to decide   -12 (60%)
Total Voters: 17

Author Topic: Trayvon Martin case  (Read 148923 times)
Dave Gray
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« Reply #330 on: April 17, 2012, 03:09:08 pm »

Once ? How do you determine when to stop ?

I would feel most comfortable if the law protected you to only apply said force while it was being applied to you.  So, Zimmerman would be allowed to use the brick to stop threats against himself.  Once those threats stop (Trayvon stops punching or Zimmerman regains ability to retreat), Zimmerman should be legally required to do so before using more excessive force.
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EKnight
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« Reply #331 on: April 17, 2012, 03:13:07 pm »

Badger brings up a good point and I would like to see how that flies in court. Apparently part of Zimmerman's statement is that Martin tried to go for Zimmerman's gun when it became exposed in the struggle. If this is fact, does that change any of your opinions (not stating it is fact but just curious about your position)?

Absolutely it would change my opinion- but only in the sense that he had a more valid reason to shoot, not the overall point that he had no business pursuing to begin with. -EK
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #332 on: April 17, 2012, 03:14:31 pm »

I have a hypothetical question:

Let's say I arm myself and go out to the hood.  (I am legally protected to do this.)
Let's say I pick a black guy and follow him around. (I am legally protected to do this.)
When he looks at me or question me, I call him a "n*****". (I am legally protected to do this.)

Let's say he gets angry and punches me.  Can I then shoot him in self defense?

I am not saying that this is the same as the Zimmerman case, but it speaks to the same point.  How much must you be willing to avoid conflict before you can claim self-defense?  Just because each of Zimmerman's individual actions are protected, in my opinion, doesn't mean that the collective of his actions are.
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Cathal
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« Reply #333 on: April 17, 2012, 03:17:26 pm »

^^^ Your situation looks like it has the intent of starting a fight and shooting someone. The neighborhood watch guy doesn't seem like he had intent. Yours should be illegal.
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EKnight
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« Reply #334 on: April 17, 2012, 03:22:53 pm »

What, exactly, are you proposing Zimmerman's intent was, pursuing a smaller, unarmed 17 year old, who is already running away, after being told not to, and while carrying a concealed weapon? If that's not intent to start some sort of conflict or vigilantism I don't know what is. -EK
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:24:48 pm by EKnight » Logged
CF DolFan
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« Reply #335 on: April 17, 2012, 03:34:46 pm »

I have a hypothetical question:

Let's say I arm myself and go out to the hood.  (I am legally protected to do this.)
Let's say I pick a black guy and follow him around. (I am legally protected to do this.)
When he looks at me or question me, I call him a "n*****". (I am legally protected to do this.)

Let's say he gets angry and punches me.  Can I then shoot him in self defense?

I am not saying that this is the same as the Zimmerman case, but it speaks to the same point.  How much must you be willing to avoid conflict before you can claim self-defense?  Just because each of Zimmerman's individual actions are protected, in my opinion, doesn't mean that the collective of his actions are.
Yes. By law you have done nothing wrong.
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badger6
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« Reply #336 on: April 17, 2012, 03:41:11 pm »

Gee, why would they say anything about racism when YOU just pointed out that life isn't a rap video. What a fail.

WTF is your point ? What does one have to do with the other ?

I have a hypothetical question:

Let's say I arm myself and go out to the hood.  (I am legally protected to do this.)
Let's say I pick a black guy and follow him around. (I am legally protected to do this.)
When he looks at me or question me, I call him a "n*****". (I am legally protected to do this.)

Let's say he gets angry and punches me.  Can I then shoot him in self defense?


I am not saying that this is the same as the Zimmerman case, but it speaks to the same point.  How much must you be willing to avoid conflict before you can claim self-defense?  Just because each of Zimmerman's individual actions are protected, in my opinion, doesn't mean that the collective of his actions are.

I would say that none of that gives anyone the right to put their hand on you whatsoever. Someone getting angry and not being able to walk away is a fault of theirs, not yours. If they do you have the right to protect yourself. How and to what extent you protect yourself is subjective and depends solely on the situation. Obviously a person should try to avoid conflict as much as possible, but avoidance shouldn't be a requirement if someone attacks you. 
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Phishfan
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« Reply #337 on: April 17, 2012, 03:43:47 pm »

While your actions are deplorable Dave (I assume we are talking more than one punch and you really have a fear for life or great injury) your shooting would be justifiable.
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EKnight
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« Reply #338 on: April 17, 2012, 03:49:54 pm »

Badger, the fact that you don't see how your statement about life and rap videos can be seen as racist is troublesome. I don't know what else to say. That's a racist comment, whether you know it or not. -EK
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badger6
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« Reply #339 on: April 17, 2012, 04:04:29 pm »

Badger, the fact that you don't see how your statement about life and rap videos can be seen as racist is troublesome. I don't know what else to say. That's a racist comment, whether you know it or not. -EK

Please explain how other people acting like real life is a music video is racist on my part ? Maybe it's not really racist, maybe you just feel "disrespected".
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #340 on: April 17, 2012, 04:12:35 pm »

^ I'm white and I thought the same thing.  It's racist.  But whatever.  If you don't see it, there's not much I can do to sway you otherwise.  At the very least, it's insensitive to a whole group of people.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 04:17:28 pm by Dave Gray » Logged

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Dave Gray
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« Reply #341 on: April 17, 2012, 04:19:45 pm »

While your actions are deplorable Dave (I assume we are talking more than one punch and you really have a fear for life or great injury) your shooting would be justifiable.

I guess that's where we disagree and I'll just have to leave it at that.  I don't think my actions should be legally protected in that case.  I don't think that you should be able to incite that violence and then respond with greater violence.

Whether or not Zimmerman did that will be determined.   And then whether or not he's protected if he did it will be determined as well.
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badger6
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« Reply #342 on: April 17, 2012, 04:36:11 pm »

^ I'm white and I thought the same thing.  It's racist.  But whatever.  If you don't see it, there's not much I can do to sway you otherwise.

I'll ask you the same question. If someone wants to act like a thug out of a rap video and bully people. When their bluff is called, how is that racist ? You know this whole society and it's politically correct bullshit has gotten so far out of hand it's ridiculous. So I can question the actions of a group of white people that act like jackasses it's perfectly acceptable, but if I question the actions of a group of black people that act like jackasses it's racist. More double standards, ha ha. It's racist alright, but not on my part.
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Cathal
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« Reply #343 on: April 17, 2012, 04:43:08 pm »

^^^ I'm not certain, but I think they're complaining that you said "Life isn't a rap video" and Trayvon is black. I'm just guessing. I don't care about the PC crap as well, but that's what I think they're alluding to.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #344 on: April 17, 2012, 04:51:09 pm »

It's not your question that's racist.  First off, you're using dog whistles, with terms like "thug out of a rap video".  But the bigger point is that rap videos have nothing to do with this case.  An unarmed minor was shot.  Somehow relating his behavior in the moment (of walking home) to a "thug out of a rap video" is a gross generalization based on race.  If this were a white boy that was shot under the same circumstances, I highly doubt you'd be talking about rap videos.
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