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Poll
Question: Do you think Zimmerman is
Guilty   -5 (25%)
Not Guilty   -2 (10%)
Self Defense   -1 (5%)
You don't know enough to decide   -12 (60%)
Total Voters: 17

Author Topic: Trayvon Martin case  (Read 148974 times)
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #405 on: April 20, 2012, 04:46:17 pm »

Or if you start a conflict that just involves pushing and shoving and he goes and gets a tire iron to hit you with you can claim self defense in protecting yourself from the tire iron.
This is the second time that you have cited an example in which the person that is initially assaulted (the "victim") introduces a weapon to the fight; such an action drastically changes the nature of the conflict.  Martin was unarmed, so that obviously wasn't the case here.

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But if all the guy does is block the sidewalk and asks you some questions you can't punch him to get him out of the way, without you being the aggressor.
If "blocking the sidewalk" means physically preventing you from getting past him to your destination, yes, that would be assault.
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« Reply #406 on: April 20, 2012, 04:49:00 pm »

Also, an adult blocking the sidewalk and preventing a minor from getting home is threatening enough to justify Treyvon to strike, I think.  Again, I think I'd want to teach my child that if a stranger stops you on the sidewalk and doesn't let you pass, you need to jack them in the face.
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badger6
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« Reply #407 on: April 20, 2012, 08:52:04 pm »

physically preventing you from getting past him to your destination, yes, that would be assault.

Who says that's what happened ? You need facts to prove that and the investigator said under oath that they didn't have any proof either way who started it. Not sure who saw it live, but from what I saw and what many of the legal analyst have said today, this may not make it to trial. If it does they don't have much of a chance to get murder2. Maybe manslaughter, but that isn't what he's charged with.......
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #408 on: April 21, 2012, 12:25:55 am »

Who says that's what happened ?
Hoodie is the one saying that's what happened, in his hypothetical scenario.  Read the thread before replying.

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You need facts to prove that and the investigator said under oath that they didn't have any proof either way who started it.
You are no more privy to which facts the current prosecutor has than I am, so please don't try to act like you have the facts and I'm just guessing.  This whole thread is almost entirely speculation.

What we do know is that the current prosecutor has chosen to charge Zimmerman with murder 2.  Now you can speculate as to whether or not they will be able to prove that, but they obviously believe they can, or they would have charged him with something else (or nothing at all).
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #409 on: April 21, 2012, 06:39:12 am »

Hoodie is the one saying that's what happened, in his hypothetical scenario.  Read the thread before replying.
You are no more privy to which facts the current prosecutor has than I am, so please don't try to act like you have the facts and I'm just guessing.  This whole thread is almost entirely speculation.

What we do know is that the current prosecutor has chosen to charge Zimmerman with murder 2.  Now you can speculate as to whether or not they will be able to prove that, but they obviously believe they can, or they would have charged him with something else (or nothing at all).
Spider I'm confused at to what you are saying ... The guy representing the state said they have no proof who started the fight.  Are you saying he was lying or not privy to the information? There is not much room for speculation in my opinion. It was a yes or no question.

If you are basing your assumtion based on the charges I will warn again that this lady was chosen because she is an overzealous prosecutor and not because of her conviction rate.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 06:42:45 am by CF DolFan » Logged

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SCFinfan
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« Reply #410 on: April 21, 2012, 11:13:32 am »

I note Yahoo has an article this morning indicating that the investigator for the state who signed an affidavit stating that Zimmerman started the fight has now admitted there is no evidence disprove Zimmerman's contention that Martin started the fight/that he was walking back to his car when the fight began and was not the aggressor. This is important, as the state has the burden of proof, and, if there's no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's contention that he was not the aggressor (and, as this board has indicated, that's really the critical matter in this whole case) then, isn't this essentially an admission that the state has no case?

http://news.yahoo.com/experts-zimmerman-attorney-made-smart-move-072305753.html

« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 11:22:45 am by SCFinfan » Logged
badger6
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« Reply #411 on: April 21, 2012, 11:54:23 am »

You are no more privy to which facts the current prosecutor has than I am, so please don't try to act like you have the facts and I'm just guessing.  This whole thread is almost entirely speculation.

What we do know is that the current prosecutor has chosen to charge Zimmerman with murder 2.  Now you can speculate as to whether or not they will be able to prove that, but they obviously believe they can, or they would have charged him with something else (or nothing at all).

I am privy to the fact that the investigator said under oath that they didn't know who initiated physical contact, who was yelling for help, on the 911 tape or if Zimmerman continued the pursuit. If they don't have evidence then they don't have a case. This is nothing but a attempt to dial down the black outrage and hope for the best.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #412 on: April 21, 2012, 12:02:02 pm »

This is the second time that you have cited an example in which the person that is initially assaulted (the "victim") introduces a weapon to the fight; such an action drastically changes the nature of the conflict. 

In my examples I also used Party A and Party B, not Martin and Zimmerman.  My point being it isn't as simple as "who started."

At least under the tradition definintion of self-defense (FLA's stand your ground law might allow for more) once the person is no longer attacking you, you must stop. 

So if Zimmerman was on the ground and Martin was over him continuing to beat him, Martin lost his self defense right and Martin now has the right to defend himself (at least under the traditional definition of self-defense, may be different under FLA's modification)
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #413 on: April 23, 2012, 05:34:59 pm »

Chief Lee resigned today and the city commissioners voted NOT to accept it. That's a far cry from the vote of no confidence a few weeks ago!
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #414 on: April 23, 2012, 06:52:52 pm »

I saw that.  What does that even mean?  How do you not accept someone's resignation?
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Landshark
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« Reply #415 on: April 23, 2012, 10:28:11 pm »

I saw that.  What does that even mean?  How do you not accept someone's resignation?

Maybe if he steps down, he still collects all his benefits as former police chief.  If he gets terminated for misconduct, he gets nothing.  By not accepting his resignation, the city commissioners leave him open for investigation into this alleged wrongdoing.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #416 on: April 24, 2012, 07:51:31 am »

Maybe if he steps down, he still collects all his benefits as former police chief.  If he gets terminated for misconduct, he gets nothing.  By not accepting his resignation, the city commissioners leave him open for investigation into this alleged wrongdoing.
Not hardly.  I had mentioned that the locals were fighting to keep him ... especially the local police.  He is a genuine good guy. I don't mean he has a lot of friends ala good ole boy kind of way ... although he does have many.  I mean he has a lot of people who have very high respect for him. He was a Captain with the Sheriff's department before becoming Sanford's police chief and oddly enough, was pretty much hand picked to raise the level at Sanford's department.  There is no doubt he has a job back at Seminole County if he wanted.

The biggest question in the meeting was what has he done wrong and no one could give a direct answer. They are going to wait until after a federal investigation and then take another vote but I think as evidence comes out it will show he stood behind his department and felt they did the right things. I think the local commissioners have come outy pretty bad in this thing. We have a black lady who pretty much polls Sharpton before making a decision and a Mayor who flip flops accroding to who is standing next to him. It's been sadly comical and almost sterotypical of a Wayans brothers movie.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #417 on: April 24, 2012, 10:55:15 am »

I saw someone (don't remember who -- woman from some local tribunal) defending him last night that said that he was paying for the sins of the crappy chiefs that came before him.  ...that he'd been there a short time, and though things were bad, that he'd been moving things in the right direction and shouldn't be the scapegoat.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #418 on: April 24, 2012, 03:43:41 pm »

I saw that.  What does that even mean?  How do you not accept someone's resignation?

I think the big thing was that there had been a severance package as part of the discussion. Since the package needed the council's approval they have a right to not accept it.
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Landshark
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« Reply #419 on: April 24, 2012, 05:01:54 pm »

I think the big thing was that there had been a severance package as part of the discussion. Since the package needed the council's approval they have a right to not accept it.

Bingo.  I knew there had to be some financial package involved with him stepping down.
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