Does Philbin know what he's doing?

[EKnight]

How long did it take Sean Payton to turn around the 3-13 Saints?
How long did it take John Harbaugh to turn around the 5-11 Ravens?

Are those the exceptions or the rule though? Why are some franchises seemingly unable to get out of ineptness no matter who the coach is? Seems like the Browns, Chiefs, Dolphins, and Raiders have been bad for the better part of a decade no matter who was coaching- including some big names. -EK

[Spider-Dan]

While I agree with your concept that it does not take as long to turn around teams as some people think, I do not like this example. The Saints were a middle of the pack team dealing prior to their 3-13 year and were dealing with Hurricane Katrina aftermath during it. That team was really not as in as bad a shape as most 3-13 teams would be.

Do you mean "middle of the pack" like the 7-9 and 7-9 2009 and 2010 Dolphins?  Teams that were in the thick of the playoff hunt in week 16?

[Spider-Dan]

Are those the exceptions or the rule though? Why are some franchises seemingly unable to get out of ineptness no matter who the coach is?

Answer: the players.

Some franchises make the right choices (Brees, Rodgers, Tuck, JPP, Gronk, Wilfork).  Others do not.

[Phishfan]

Do you mean "middle of the pack" like the 7-9 and 7-9 2009 and 2010 Dolphins?  Teams that were in the thick of the playoff hunt in week 16?

I believe they were 8-8 and in the playoff hunt.

[Spider-Dan]

I would also like to emphasize that I'm not saying that Philbin/Ireland don't know what they are doing.  I'm saying that they have stepped up their timetable for producing results with their brash actions.

[Pappy13]

What team has followed this slow-but-steady plan you mention?  Who is your blueprint?

Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you, but Dallas was the slow but steady plan that I pointed out in the first post. 1-15, 7-9, 11-5 (playoffs), 13-3 (Champs). But you could see that by year 2 they were headed in the right direction. That's all I'm looking for.

[bsfins]

Extreme examples?  Which teams have risen to the top by following the plan you laid out?

NYG?  They won their division in Eli's second season, and won the title in his fourth (a year where Coughlin was on the verge of being fired, it bears mentioning).
GB?  They blew everything up in 2008 (finishing 6-10), made the playoffs the next year, and won the title the year after that.
Pre-2011 IND?  They were 13-3 in Peyton's second season.
PIT?  They were 6-10 in '03, drafted Big Ben, and immediately went 15-1 in his first season and won the title in his second.

What team has followed this slow-but-steady plan you mention?  Who is your blueprint?

I have a problem with these examples,or just about any example you throw out there....

To Brian's Point - Since 2000 The Miami Dolphins have changed owners,gone through how many General managers (Wannstedt, Spileman,Saban,Randy Mueller,Parcells/Ireland ) front office changes,and Head coaches? (Wannstedt,Bates,Saban,Bates,Sparano,Bowles,Now Philbin)

Since 2000 Just head coaches - I think most of them haven't changed their front office multiple times,I'm not sure all the inner workings of each team...
NYG - 2 Fassel,Coughlin
GB - 2 Sherman,McCarthy
IND -3 Mora,Dungy,Caldwell
NO- 2 Hasslett,Peyton
Pit- 2 Cowher,Tomlin
Bal- 2 Billick,Harbaugh

Every time we rebuild we have more trash to throw out,because they aren't his guy's...

I'm hoping this time,We're on the right course,but I can't compare the Dolphins to any other franchise....I have hope...That maybe we can win 4-8 games this year,7-9 next year...

Edited I forgot to add Baltimore Ravens....

[dolfan13]

Are those the exceptions or the rule though? Why are some franchises seemingly unable to get out of ineptness no matter who the coach is? Seems like the Browns, Chiefs, Dolphins, and Raiders have been bad for the better part of a decade no matter who was coaching- including some big names. -EK

fins problem has always been a personnel problem more so than a coaching problem.

what blows my mind is that the same guy that has had a big say in building said crappy roster for the past 5 years, is the same guy you are going to give 3 more years to build a championship contending team? defies all logic...

[Brian Fein]

I don't believe that trading away Vontae Davis and cutting Chad Johnson is "brash" and proclaiming a "proven track record" as you state.  I believe these are simple cases of guys underperforming or not fitting into the coach's plans, and wanting to remove the distraction from the team.  Plus, as far as I know, the Colts came asking for Vontae, not the other way around.

Vontae is a marginal talent that doesn't apply himself.  If Ireland squeezed Indy for a 2nd, that's a huge win!
Chad was a marginal talent that provided media distraction.
Marshall is a good player, but cost too much money as well as the media distraction.

I support everything Philbin has done so far and I hope he continues.  I believe he can make the playoffs next season, but as I stated earlier - even Sparano looked great his first year.

I want to see year-to-year improvement.  That's enough for me, at this point.

[Spider-Dan]

Since 2000 Just head coaches - I think most of them haven't changed their front office multiple times,I'm not sure all the inner workings of each team...
NYG - 2 Fassel,Coughlin
GB - 2 Sherman,McCarthy
IND -3 Mora,Dungy,Caldwell
NO- 2 Hasslett,Peyton
Pit- 2 Cowher,Tomlin
Bal- 2 Billick,Harbaugh

You are confusing effect for cause.  Miami didn't keep one coach for 25 years because they really liked Don Shula's personality... they kept him because they were winning.

Fassel was fired for losing.  If Coughlin would have missed the playoffs in '08, he would have been fired, too.
Sherman was fired for losing.  McCarthy is a legitimate example of a coach who GB stuck with, though.
Mora Sr. was fired for losing.  Dungy retired and Caldwell got exactly three years (including a SB trip) before he got the hook.
Jim Haslett was fired for losing.  Sean Payton has been the best coach in NO's history, by a mile.
Cowher retired.  Tomlin has done nothing but win.
Billick got a relatively long leash after his SB win.  Harbaugh has done nothing but win.

So yes, if you have a coach that's doing his job (winning), he gets to keep it.

And not to belabor this point, but if your argument is that the Dolphins are going through coaches too quickly, it is only reasonable to ask which coach you think they should have kept.  Do you think Wanny deserved a few more years?  Was Cameron unfairly yanked?  Did Sparano get fired too soon?  These decisions are not made in a vacuum.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't believe that trading away Vontae Davis and cutting Chad Johnson is "brash" and proclaiming a "proven track record" as you state.  I believe these are simple cases of guys underperforming or not fitting into the coach's plans, and wanting to remove the distraction from the team.  Plus, as far as I know, the Colts came asking for Vontae, not the other way around.

1) I'm talking more about Marshall than Johnson.
2) If your best player at a position is "underperforming" or doesn't "fit into your plans," that sounds exactly like a coaching problem.  Your job as a coach is to get the best from your players, and to design your plans around the players you have, not the players you wish you had.  For all their proclamations about the High Character that they want from their players, Philbin/Ireland have done jack squat to replace Marshall or Davis.
3) I'm sure plenty of teams have "asked" about Cameron Wake or Jake Long.  That doesn't mean you have to do something about it.

[bsfins]

I think we're just going see it differently...

How long did it take Sean Payton to turn around the 3-13 Saints?
How long did it take John Harbaugh to turn around the 5-11 Ravens?

You seem to be under the impression that it takes years and years to go from trash to contenders.  There is no such thing as a 4-year-plan.  Changing coaches every three years only leads to more ineptitude and starting over when you hire bad coaches.



Unless maybe you're saying that Miami should have held on to Wanny, Cameron, or Sparano just a little bit longer?

I feel you were implying it's all on the coach, that's what I disagree with....I feel it's an organizational thing,and every team situation is different...It wasn't just Sean Peyton,John Harbaugh,Coughlin,Mcarthy,Dungy,Tomlin...The whole organization...(As you said) They picked the right coaches,to try to make their personnel better...IMO Miami can't do that right now

You are confusing effect for cause.  Miami didn't keep one coach for 25 years because they really liked Don Shula's personality... they kept him because they were winning.

Fassel was fired for losing.  If Coughlin would have missed the playoffs in '08, he would have been fired, too.
Sherman was fired for losing.  McCarthy is a legitimate example of a coach who GB stuck with, though.
Mora Sr. was fired for losing.  Dungy retired and Caldwell got exactly three years (including a SB trip) before he got the hook.
Jim Haslett was fired for losing.  Sean Payton has been the best coach in NO's history, by a mile.
Cowher retired.  Tomlin has done nothing but win.
Billick got a relatively long leash after his SB win.  Harbaugh has done nothing but win.

So yes, if you have a coach that's doing his job (winning), he gets to keep it.

And not to belabor this point, but if your argument is that the Dolphins are going through coaches too quickly, it is only reasonable to ask which coach you think they should have kept.  Do you think Wanny deserved a few more years?  Was Cameron unfairly yanked?  Did Sparano get fired too soon?  These decisions are not made in a vacuum.

In the Dolphins organization,the people making those decisions keeps changing.Since Shula has been gone,We've been a run the ball and play good defense team, organization philosophy...How to get those keeps changing,through who's making the personnel decisions of picking players,and picking the coaches....

We're not bringing in Coaches,to take our talent,and make it better,We keep trying to rebuild the team because this guy is our "Savior".

I see it it's more than just the coach, it's the whole organization.We agree that

We're not seeing it the same way...

IMO Philbin, is trying to do what they did in GB, build through the draft,and take develop other people's cast offs...IMO doesn't take 2 years,to build this way...It was the plan I think Parcells and company was doing,till they got overconfident,and started going the FA route because we did so well in '08...

I think in Philbin,We're making the biggest shift in Philosophy in 15 years.Every press conference isn't we're going to "Run the ball and play good defense" "Gringd it out" The Fundementals..(Makes me want to hump his leg,not hearing those things every press conference  )

QB is an emphasis,versus get QB that will not fuck it up and lose us a game.

I feel I can't blame Philbin for Spilled milk of the past...Right now...He has his own milk.I think he needs to get rid of the guy's that aren't going to productive,now or down the road...

[Spider-Dan]

Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you, but Dallas was the slow but steady plan that I pointed out in the first post. 1-15, 7-9, 11-5 (playoffs), 13-3 (Champs). But you could see that by year 2 they were headed in the right direction. That's all I'm looking for.

I don't think the '90s Cowboys team is a viable model for the Dolphins.

1) Miami has no Herschel Walker to trade (this is one of the most important parts of the Cowboy model).
2) With the existence of a salary cap, even if Miami could acquire a bunch of outstanding players at once, they wouldn't be able to keep them.

The irony is that of any team in the league, Miami is the MOST qualified to say that that particular Cowboy model will not work again.  Why?  The Dolphins hired the creator of that plan, and he was unable to replicate it in Miami.

[hordman]

The irony is that of any team in the league, Miami is the MOST qualified to say that that particular Cowboy model will not work again.  Why?  The Dolphins hired the creator of that plan, and he was unable to replicate it in Miami.

Don't remind me.  JJ set back this team's offense 10 years with his picks during the 4-year stint.  I believe he drafted a total of 7 RBs during this time (ALL Busts, mind you) and one WR of note, Yatil Green.  He drafted no one to help Marino and the offense.  You look back at those rosters and based on who he had on offense, he was unbelievably lucky he had those records of 9-7, 10-6. 

[MikeO]

Starting to think there is only 2 possibilities for Philbin. He is going to clean house and build this the right way and in 2-3 years he will have praised heaped on him for turning this entire franchise around.

OR

He is Josh McDaniels 2.0 who will run everyone out in a year, alienate every player on the roster and the entire fanbase. Then be run out of town himself very quickly

For the first one to happen he is going to have to win a few games this year and have Tannehill play well so people (players/fans) have a reason to believe going forward.