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Author Topic: U.S. eliminated from the World Cup  (Read 186 times)
CF DolFan
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cf_dolfan
« on: October 11, 2017, 08:04:30 am »

And with that comment about our crappy soccer team we have now missed another World Cup.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 11:36:32 am by Phishfan » Logged

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Pappy13
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 02:21:29 pm »

And with that comment about our crappy soccer team we have now missed another World Cup.
I find your comment somewhat strange since the US has not missed a world cup in a very long time, but I understand your sentiment. I suggest you watch the women play. The US has a very good women's team and actually the women's game has come a LONG way recently. It's not on par with the men's game obviously, but the games look a lot more similar to the men's game then it used to. They use the whole field, move the ball back and forth, maintain possession, build up with quick passing, counter at times etc. And I'm not just talking about the US, I'm talking about all the top teams. I remember when the US just completely dominated play and basically they just kicked the ball to the front and let Kristine Lilly and Mia Hamm run it down and score. It's not like that anymore. There are a lot of talented players on a lot of teams and the games are very evenly matched and mostly enjoyable. Give it a shot. I love watching the US women's national team play, the US men's national team makes me gag.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 02:23:14 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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CF DolFan
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 03:20:45 pm »

I find your comment somewhat strange since the US has not missed a world cup in a very long time, but I understand your sentiment. I suggest you watch the women play. The US has a very good women's team and actually the women's game has come a LONG way recently. It's not on par with the men's game obviously, but the games look a lot more similar to the men's game then it used to. They use the whole field, move the ball back and forth, maintain possession, build up with quick passing, counter at times etc. And I'm not just talking about the US, I'm talking about all the top teams. I remember when the US just completely dominated play and basically they just kicked the ball to the front and let Kristine Lilly and Mia Hamm run it down and score. It's not like that anymore. There are a lot of talented players on a lot of teams and the games are very evenly matched and mostly enjoyable. Give it a shot. I love watching the US women's national team play, the US men's national team makes me gag.
I'm kind of derailing but I can assure you I am very familiar with women's soccer. I have coached or been part of teams that included girls playing or have played in the past for many top 10 colleges. Current players are starting at North Carolina, Duke, South Carolina, Oklahoma, Florida, Florida State, Villanova, and UCF.  In fact, have known several current and former women on the national team.  I was president of what is now Orlando City Youth (Formerly Seminole Soccer Club) for many years.  We are one of the very few clubs to own their own complex including a stadium. Michelle Akers is from here. Ashlyn Harris, the goalie for both Orlando City and the national team played in our club for my Girls Director. The national teams have trained there on many occasions and we have had many of the national team players on our team. Currently Alex Morgan and the best female player in the world Marta plays here.  As other nations have develop their own leagues and are actually training their women, we are losing ground there too.

We also host many International teams while they are in town so I actually get to see what good soccer is supposed to look like. Barry Hulshoff from Ajax used to coach at our club as well so I learned a lot about "football" from him and his protege'.   

I see how other places train and it isn't based on how much money mommy and daddy can pay and that's the biggest issue with soccer.  Kids with a head for soccer need to be trained. Our problem is only rich kids and big and fast poor kids get trained so it limits our ability to grow. Everyone is worried about winning in the short term so mommy and daddy can show off JRs trophies. College football mirrors that but the parents are replaced by boosters.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 04:58:11 pm »

At risk of just you and I posting, I agree with everything you said, but there's a couple other things besides what you mentioned that also prevents the US from excelling in Soccer and that's FOOTBALL, BASKETBALL, BASEBALL and to a lesser extent HOCKEY. There's so many talented kids that play multiple sports and soccer tends to get pushed to the side at some point in the kids growth that we lose out on a lot of kids that could be terrific soccer players if they just stuck with it or got the training they needed. It's not like that in a lot of these other countries that we play against in the world cup, in fact it's just the opposite. Kid is good at both Basketball and Soccer in Germany, 1 guess which one he ends up playing or at least which one is pushed more on him. Just makes sense they end up with best soccer players and the US ends up with the best Basketball and Football players. At least that's a part of it.

Forgot to mention that's why I feel the US has done much better with the Women's national team overall. There's not as much competition for Women athletes in other sports, the best ones have as good or better chance of playing professional soccer as they do any other sport.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 05:03:09 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 11:45:12 am »

Probably a dumb question, but why don't major nations just make it in every year? -- expand the tournament.  There's certainly demand for it and money to be had.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 11:46:12 am »

I thought this should be split into it's own thread.

The question now is what does U.S. Soccer do to get back to the World Cup? We are at a crossroads here as several players should have suited up for their last memorable matches (Howard and Guzan are both finished in my opinion, Dempsey, Zusi, Beasley, and several others) and I have not been impressed by much of the youth as they have not been able to qualify for the Olympics either. Basically Pulisic is it. I'm in favor of some sweeping changes personally. I think Gulati has given us all he can and we should probably look at replacing Arena as well (I've always like him and trained at his camps when he was at UVA).
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Phishfan
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 11:52:37 am »

Probably a dumb question, but why don't major nations just make it in every year? -- expand the tournament.  There's certainly demand for it and money to be had.

Because the tournament is already a month long as it is with 32 teams. There are plans to expand the field again but just saying all major nations qualify is not a good answer. Qualification is part of the process. Do you hear anyone with an effective argument for taking every NFL team into the playoffs?
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 12:39:24 pm »

Do you hear anyone with an effective argument for taking every NFL team into the playoffs?

I don't really think this is a fair comparison.  The World Cup doesn't feel like playoffs of a league to me -- it's more like a global event, akin to the Olympics (which I understand you still have to qualify for.)

Expand the field and give the top 20 countries, population-wise, auto-bids.  I don't know diddily dick about soccer, but it just seems like a shame to leave a major nation, with major money, major interest, etc -- out of a tournament that only occurs every 4 years.
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masterfins
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2017, 01:57:15 pm »

My thoughts - Iceland, with a population of 330K made the Cup.  Even if the U.S. is not getting their top tier athletes to play football, their 6th string athletes ought to be better than Iceland's.  Poor play and poor coaching led to this debacle.  It's embarrassing.  As for competing to win the Cup, sure all the other arguments do come into play as to why the U.S. may never win the World Cup.
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Phishfan
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2017, 02:43:18 pm »

Expand the field and give the top 20 countries, population-wise, auto-bids.  I don't know diddily dick about soccer, but it just seems like a shame to leave a major nation, with major money, major interest, etc -- out of a tournament that only occurs every 4 years.

Still a terrible idea and since you don't know diddily dick about soccer, I'll show you why. Below is a list of countries by population (based on the first Google result I received) and the number of World Cup appearances with their last one in parenthesis. That isn't a tournament people want to watch and eats up qualifying positions from a number of soccer powers.

1   China 1 (2002)   
2   India - 0   
3   United States 10 (2104)   
4   Indonesia 1 (1938)      
5   Brazil 21 (2018)      
6   Pakistan - 0      
7   Nigeria 6 (2018)      
8   Bangladesh - 0      
9   Russia 11 (2018 automatic bid as the host, previously 1990 as the Soviet Union)      
10   Japan -    6 (2018)   
11   Mexico 16 (2018)      
12   Philippines - 0      
13   Ethiopia - 0      
14   Vietnam - 0   
15   Egypt 3 (2018)      
16   Turkey 2 (2002)      
17   Germany 19 (2018)      
18   Iran 5 (2018)      
19   Congo, Democratic Republic of the 1 (1974)      
20   Thailand 0
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2017, 03:00:20 pm »

I thought this should be split into it's own thread.

The question now is what does U.S. Soccer do to get back to the World Cup? We are at a crossroads here as several players should have suited up for their last memorable matches (Howard and Guzan are both finished in my opinion, Dempsey, Zusi, Beasley, and several others) and I have not been impressed by much of the youth as they have not been able to qualify for the Olympics either. Basically Pulisic is it. I'm in favor of some sweeping changes personally. I think Gulati has given us all he can and we should probably look at replacing Arena as well (I've always like him and trained at his camps when he was at UVA).
Zusi used to play our club too! His sister and my daughter played together at one point.

Unlike football, soccer is about being dynamic. Being able to see things before they happen. You can only get there by taking chances and not being afraid to make mistakes. You have to fail a lot before you succeed. In the US we teach kids not to make mistakes so they never develop a Messi attitude. The best soccer player in the world is 5'7" and weighs about 155 lbs. He is far from being one of the best athletes in he world from a physical stand point. He can see things before they happen and do things no one else can. In the US if you tried to do that in youth soccer you'd fail and then get benched. In Spain they don't keep score in the youth so the kids keep trying. I don't know how you get past that when parents are spending thousands of dollars to watch little Johnny and Suzi play and get trophies they can post on Facebook.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2017, 04:04:51 pm »

Still a terrible idea and since you don't know diddily dick about soccer, I'll show you why. Below is a list of countries by population (based on the first Google result I received) and the number of World Cup appearances with their last one in parenthesis. That isn't a tournament people want to watch and eats up qualifying positions from a number of soccer powers.

Fair point -- what about an automatic bid for countries of that size that have qualified in the last 20 years or something like that?
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Fau Teixeira
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2017, 09:58:09 pm »

2 things

1 -
Quote
The best soccer player in the world is 5'7" and weighs about 155 lbs.
The best player in the world is 6'1 and weighs 175

2 - the US team already has by far the easiest qualification route to every world cup, there are 3 qualifiers from concacaf. Other than mexico, you're competing against countries with comparatively tiny populations.  losing to trinidad and tobago is absurd. It would be like a major european team losing to andorra.

Chile also didn't make it into the world cup this go around and they're the current south american champions. Holland failed to make it in from europe and they've traditionally been a staple in world cups. There's no entitlement in qualifying for the world up. If you want in, then win and you'll be in. That's all there is to it.

Pay to play hurts the US in developing talent, yes. But jettisoning Klinsmann for washed up Arenas was a mistake. He had gotten the US qualified before, he was working with an aging squad and he was given 2 games and then the boot. Rumors are he lost the locker room and they players wanted him out, and if that's the case, the players have only themselves to blame in all this. He at least had a realistic evaluation about the current crop of players. Sometimes playing ugly and winning beats trying whatever the crap Arenas was trying to pull with his lineups and losing.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 10:05:19 pm by Fau Teixeira » Logged
Spider-Dan
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 03:33:02 am »

I don't really think this is a fair comparison.  The World Cup doesn't feel like playoffs of a league to me -- it's more like a global event, akin to the Olympics (which I understand you still have to qualify for.)

Expand the field and give the top 20 countries, population-wise, auto-bids.  I don't know diddily dick about soccer, but it just seems like a shame to leave a major nation, with major money, major interest, etc -- out of a tournament that only occurs every 4 years.
If a country with a top 20 population can't field a team that can beat a small country, they don't deserve to be in.  Q.E.D.
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CF DolFan
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2017, 10:50:45 am »

1 - The best player in the world is 6'1 and weighs 175
Hahaha I'm assuming you are going with Ronaldo? Either way he weighs over 25lbs less than Jarvis Landry. Most soccer players are small in comparison. The NFL and the NBA are not stealing those players in the US unless intelligence is only is our larger guys.
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