New normal?

[CF DolFan]

Spider ... do you not think "dealers" will be available if all the law abiding citizens give up every single gun? Seriously ... what cocaine addict can't find coke? It just doesn't happen. I swear I'd give up every single gun i own if I thought it would help but there is no way i can believe that

[pondwater]

An armed uprising against the government only makes sense if your intention is to overthrow said government.  There is no other condition.

So this idea that the Second Amendment exists for idiots like Cliven Bundy to forcibly annex land he doesn't want to pay taxes to graze his cattle on... it's nonsense.  The Constitution does not have a clause to facilitate its violent expulsion; that question was fully resolved in the 1860s.  Overthrowing the government by force is not your constitutional right.

Are you saying that whatever atrocities the government could put upon it's citizens is OK with you? Are you saying that there is no possible scenario that you would fight against the government? Are you saying that you would willfully go to the oven? Just answer the question...

[pondwater]

Spider ... do you not think "dealers" will be available if all the law abiding citizens give up every single gun? Seriously ... what cocaine addict can't find coke? It just doesn't happen. I swear I'd give up every single gun i own if I thought it would help but there is no way i can believe that

If they ban AR15s the bad guys will use shotguns. Then they will want to ban shotguns. When they ban shotguns the bad guys will use Glocks. Then they will want to ban Glocks. When they ban Glocks the bad guy will use the next firearm in the list. Round and round we go.

[CF DolFan]

You know its funny that the same people calling Trump "Hitler" are upset he won't take guns away from the citizens.

 

[pondwater]

This is why any gun control law must be enforced nationally to be effective.  As pondwater repeatedly pointed out, how often do you see these crimes being committed with Class III (NFA) firearms?  Clearly, some gun control laws are VERY effective.

Also, please inform me the main differences between acquiring a Class III firearm vs acquiring any other firearm. This should be fun, haha.

[Spider-Dan]

Spider ... do you not think "dealers" will be available if all the law abiding citizens give up every single gun?

Again, I'll outsource my response to pondwater:

When was the last time that a Class III weapon was involved in a murder? I'll wait.

Clearly, whatever we are doing with NFA weapons worked wonders.  So it seems to me that expanding that to all guns, nationally, is a great start.

Are you saying that whatever atrocities the government could put upon it's citizens is OK with you?

No.  For instance I oppose slavery, I oppose the internment of lawful citizens based solely on their race, and I oppose a ban on immigrants based on their religion.  But the only time it makes sense to use guns as a solution for my opposition is if I intend to violently overthrow the government.

Also, please inform me the main differences between acquiring a Class III firearm vs acquiring any other firearm.

If you have a point to make about acquiring a class III firearm, then make it.  I have no interest in gun enthusiast Trivial Pursuit.  So if you're looking for someone to debate the difference between a "bullet" and a "cartridge," or a "clip" and a "magazine," you'll have to look elsewhere.

[pondwater]

No.  For instance I oppose slavery, I oppose the internment of lawful citizens based solely on their race, and I oppose a ban on immigrants based on their religion.  But the only time it makes sense to use guns as a solution for my opposition is if I intend to violently overthrow the government.

What if you don't PLAN to overthrow anything. What if you're just protecting yourself and fighting back. Hypothetically, what if the government starts throwing people in the oven and then they show up at your house for you. How many regimes in history have disarmed their citizens and then committed mass genocide? So if someone pick up arms to resist being thrown in an oven, then according to you, they are PLANNING to overthrow the government? That's an odd perspective.

Again, I'll outsource my response to pondwater:

Clearly, whatever we are doing with NFA weapons worked wonders.  So it seems to me that expanding that to all guns, nationally, is a great start.

SEE BELOW...

If you have a point to make about acquiring a class III firearm, then make it.  I have no interest in gun enthusiast Trivial Pursuit.  So if you're looking for someone to debate the difference between a "bullet" and a "cartridge," or a "clip" and a "magazine," you'll have to look elsewhere.

We're not doing anything with NFA weapons. If you can pass a background check to buy a regular firearm then you can pass a background check to get a Class III NFA weapon. The main hurdle is the cost. Since you can't buy any fully automatic firearms made post 1986 there is a very limited supply. Therefore cost is very high. Also you have to pay for the tax stamp. Since there are an estimated 350 million firearms in private hands in the US, probably many more than that. It would be virtually impossible to expand that to regular firearms. You know, the whole supply and demand thing. So other than extra paperwork, anyone can own a Class III fully automatic evil death machine from hell. As long as you have deep enough pockets.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

You know its funny that the same people calling Trump "Hitler" are upset he won't take guns away from the citizens.

 

It is a total myth to claim what allowed the Nazis to rise to power was gun control. The Nazi's enacted a law that banned Jews from owning fire arms and that is about all, no restrictions were enacted on Aryans.   That law was not about guns it was racism.  So the only comparison would be our current system that pretty much has zero restricts on white male nationalist from owning guns but excuses cops from shooting Castile.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Spider I think you are on to something.  We need more African Americans (preferably male, with neck tatooes and afros exercising any their rights in any open carry states....that might get is meaningful gun reform.

Even better idea......

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/17/nra-membership-muslim-florida-shooting/

[Spider-Dan]

What if you don't PLAN to overthrow anything. What if you're just protecting yourself and fighting back.

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I like to think about the consequences of my actions.

It's interesting that you talk about "being picked up for the oven" as if Jews in Nazi territory were fully aware that they were being rounded up to be exterminated.  No one (outside of the concentration camps) knew the Jews were being systematically exterminated until the Allies liberated the camps.  As far as European Jews knew, the Nazi concentration camps were no different than the Japanese concentration camps going on in America.

So let's follow through on your scenario:  Suppose I am a legal permanent resident and future-fascist ICE shows up at my door.   They say they need to bring me down to the HQ and "verify my paperwork," which I believe may be a ruse to deprive me of my lawful freedom (and property).  Do I grab my sidearm and defend my liberty?  What's my plan for tomorrow?  For next week?  For next year?

This is why these ridiculous gun fantasies are so absurd.  The idea that stormtroopers are going to show up at your house and verbally ask you to peaceably report to your death camp is laughable, but that's the kind of situation you guys require to make your position seem plausible.  You know what happens in countries where a first-world government wants to kill you?  They don't send stormtroopers to your house, they send rockets.  Have fun shooting at them.

We're not doing anything with NFA weapons. If you can pass a background check to buy a regular firearm then you can pass a background check to get a Class III NFA weapon. The main hurdle is the cost. Since you can't buy any fully automatic firearms made post 1986 there is a very limited supply. Therefore cost is very high. Also you have to pay for the tax stamp.

Please explain why you "can't buy any fully automatic firearms made after 1986."  Why don't people just buy them on the black market, as is suggested every time we talk about new gun control laws?

Since there are an estimated 350 million firearms in private hands in the US, probably many more than that. It would be virtually impossible to expand that to regular firearms.

Why?  I mean, it seems that "deep enough pockets" are enough of an obstacle to block all (?) NFA firearms from being used for murder, right?  So why can't we put tax stamps on every gun, that raises them to (net) NFA prices?

And I don't think getting rid of existing guns is as difficult as you imply.  If the Supreme Court determined that the 2nd Amendment applies only to "well-regulated militias," Congress could subsequently pass an Australia-style gun control law that declared you have 2 years to buy a (very expensive) tax stamp for your well-regulated guns, and turn in everything you don't buy a stamp for.  After the 2 year grace period, if you are found to be in possession of a gun without a tax stamp, mandatory 10-year federal sentence.  That would sort out the militiamen from the cosplayers in short order.

[CF DolFan]

It is a total myth to claim what allowed the Nazis to rise to power was gun control. The Nazi's enacted a law that banned Jews from owning fire arms and that is about all, no restrictions were enacted on Aryans.   That law was not about guns it was racism.  So the only comparison would be our current system that pretty much has zero restricts on white male nationalist from owning guns but excuses cops from shooting Castile.

It's not a total myth. It banned "weapons not belonging to supporters of the Nazis, rendered the Jews and other disfavored groups like the Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles, and their potential allies defenseless and set the stage for the slaughter of the Holocaust that followed." That would be equal to banning guns for everyone who isn't a member of the NRA ... which actually might help seeing as how the NRA members aren't the ones committing most of the gun felonies. Maybe you are on to something Hoodie. 

[pondwater]

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I like to think about the consequences of my actions.

It's interesting that you talk about "being picked up for the oven" as if Jews in Nazi territory were fully aware that they were being rounded up to be exterminated.  No one (outside of the concentration camps) knew the Jews were being systematically exterminated until the Allies liberated the camps.  As far as European Jews knew, the Nazi concentration camps were no different than the Japanese concentration camps going on in America.

So let's follow through on your scenario:  Suppose I am a legal permanent resident and future-fascist ICE shows up at my door.   They say they need to bring me down to the HQ and "verify my paperwork," which I believe may be a ruse to deprive me of my lawful freedom (and property).  Do I grab my sidearm and defend my liberty?  What's my plan for tomorrow?  For next week?  For next year?

This is why these ridiculous gun fantasies are so absurd.  The idea that stormtroopers are going to show up at your house and verbally ask you to peaceably report to your death camp is laughable, but that's the kind of situation you guys require to make your position seem plausible.  You know what happens in countries where a first-world government wants to kill you?  They don't send stormtroopers to your house, they send rockets.  Have fun shooting at them.

Yeah, they're fantasies. That kind of thing has never happened, ever.

After Germany established gun control. About 13 million Jews were rounded up and exterminated.

After Uganda established gun control. About 300,000 people were rounded up and exterminated.

After Guatemala established gun control. About 100,000 people were rounded up and exterminated.

After Cambodia established gun control. About one million people were rounded up and exterminated.

After Turkey established gun control. About 1.5 million people were rounded up and exterminated.

After the Soviet Union established gun control. About 20 million people were rounded up and exterminated.

After China established gun control. About 20 million people were rounded up and exterminated.

Please explain why you "can't buy any fully automatic firearms made after 1986."  Why don't people just buy them on the black market, as is suggested every time we talk about new gun control laws?
Why?  I mean, it seems that "deep enough pockets" are enough of an obstacle to block all (?) NFA firearms from being used for murder, right?  So why can't we put tax stamps on every gun, that raises them to (net) NFA prices?

You can't buy them because they are regulated Class III weapons. People don't buy them on the black market because they do the same thing as the cheaper alternative. I think you miss understand the tax stamp. On NFA weapons the tax stamp is $200. The reason that Class III weapons are so expensive is that they are rare and in limited supply. With 350 million+ regular firearms in the wild. Supply and demand would not dictate high prices.

And I don't think getting rid of existing guns is as difficult as you imply.  If the Supreme Court determined that the 2nd Amendment applies only to "well-regulated militias," Congress could subsequently pass an Australia-style gun control law that declared you have 2 years to buy a (very expensive) tax stamp for your well-regulated guns, and turn in everything you don't buy a stamp for.  After the 2 year grace period, if you are found to be in possession of a gun without a tax stamp, mandatory 10-year federal sentence.  That would sort out the militiamen from the cosplayers in short order.

I don't know WTF a cosplayer is. But anyhow, what you just posted isn't even in the realm of reality. Even if all that happened. All existing firearms would be grandfathered in. And even if they weren't, do you think that everyone is just going to buy a stamp? Every time gun grabbers talk about COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS they come up with some silly shit that doesn't even have a chance in hell. That's why nothing will ever be accomplished. You have a better chance of going to McDonald's, applying for a cashier job, and tell them you want $100 an hour.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Yeah, they're fantasies. That kind of thing has never happened, ever.

After Germany established gun control. About 13 million Jews were rounded up and exterminated.

I stopped reading here.  Not going to continue reading if you can't even handle basic historical facts.  Nazis killed 6 million after a mentally unhinged leader came to power on a platform of nationalism and scapegoating "others".

[pondwater]

I stopped reading here.  Not going to continue reading if you can't even handle basic historical facts.  Nazis killed 6 million after a mentally unhinged leader came to power on a platform of nationalism and scapegoating "others".

Well bye!!!

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

No law will end gun violence in America.  But that is hardly a reason not to enact laws that reduce gun violence.  

No law will make automobile travel perfectly safe.  Yet we have passed laws that have made it safer.

Requiring smoke detectors, and fire exits hasn't eliminated fatalities due to fires.  But it has reduced them.

Requiring bicycle helmets hasn't made it perfectly safe for children who ride their bikes to school, but it has made it safer.  

Banning people from false shouting fire in a movie theater hasn't eliminated all risks of harm in a movie theater but it does make it safer, a trade off we accept despite the 1st amendment.

Banning guns on airplanes and installing metal detectors didn't stop hijacking but it significantly reduced it. Despite some folks being offended that doing so infringes on the second and fourth amendment.

There can be common sense changes to our gun laws.

 If a court adjudicates that someone is not competent enough to manage their own social security because of advanced demenshia then they shouldn't have access to firearms.  Would such a law solve all gun violence? No.  would it reduce the number of accidental shootings and suicides?  Yes

If there is sufficient evidence that party A is threat to party B for party A for a judge to grant a restraining order against party A than if that threat includes the use of guns than party A should be required to surrender the guns.  Due process needs to occur with the burden on the state/party B to prove that party A is in fact a danger.  But if you threaten to kill someone one you forfeit your second amendment rights much like if you actually murder someone you forfeit your 13th amendment rights.

If you are suicidal the state can place you in protective custody for you own well being.  The same logic that allows that should result in you losing access to firearms.

Background checks should occur for all gun sales, including those at gun shows.  Close the effing loophole.

Ban bumpstocks.

Ban all weapons,clips, magazines etc with a capacity higher than 8.  Won't reduce the number of incidents but will reduce the number of fatalities per incident.

Require that any gun not in someone's actual control be stored in a locked safe.  Would greatly reduce guns getting in the hand of thieves.

As for the argument that banning the sale of high capacity magazines won't get rid of existing ones.  That is true.  But it will mean will stop making the problem worse.  New car have a third brake light that has greatly reduced rear ending.  But there are still cars out there without that light.  Just because we couldn't solve the problem overnight isn't a reason to move in the right direction.

No law will solve the gun problem, even multiple laws won't. But that is not a reason not to partially improve the problem be it fire safety, air travel, bike travel, or even guns