New normal?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

On a positive note.  The Miami Dolphins is tied for first place (with Office Depot) for largest donation to the victims gofundme page at $50,000. 

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah, they're fantasies. That kind of thing has never happened, ever.

Do you really think that the Palestinians would be safe and secure today if only they had more handguns?

The battle you are fighting in your imagination is one of a bygone era.  Again: when a 21st-century first-world government wants to indiscriminately kill you, they just send a rocket to your house.  It doesn't matter how well-armed the people in Yemen are when a predator drone shows up in their backyard.

And to re-emphasize a point from earlier: the 2nd Amendment has existed for as long as the U.S. has, and yet it didn't stop lawful Japanese citizens from being hauled off to camps by the government.  So what practical use is it, exactly?  What is this mythical trigger point where The People are going to uniformly Rise Up against the government without being brutally smashed down?  It didn't happen with Japanese internment, it didn't happen when black activists were having their row house LITERALLY BOMBED BY THE GOV'T in the middle of Philadelphia, it didn't happen in Waco.  What is the threshold?

You can't buy them because they are regulated Class III weapons.

It sounds like you are saying that designating firearm as a regulated class III weapon has been very effective at keeping them out of the hands of criminals, and that a complete ban on private sales of post-1986 automatic weapons has had ~100% success in removing them from the market (both white and black market).  Perhaps you would like to rephrase.

People don't buy them on the black market because they do the same thing as the cheaper alternative. [...] The reason that Class III weapons are so expensive is that they are rare and in limited supply.

You didn't say people "don't" buy fully automatic firearms made after 1986; you said they "can't."  If gun control laws don't work, what difference does 1986 make in whether or not you can buy an NFA gun?  Why can't you just buy a post-1986 fully-auto firearm on the all-powerful black market?

The answer is that sufficiently strong gun laws DO work, and the NFA is a prime example.

[pondwater]

Do you really think that the Palestinians would be safe and secure today if only they had more handguns?

The battle you are fighting in your imagination is one of a bygone era.  Again: when a 21st-century first-world government wants to indiscriminately kill you, they just send a rocket to your house.  It doesn't matter how well-armed the people in Yemen are when a predator drone shows up in their backyard.

And to re-emphasize a point from earlier: the 2nd Amendment has existed for as long as the U.S. has, and yet it didn't stop lawful Japanese citizens from being hauled off to camps by the government.  So what practical use is it, exactly?  What is this mythical trigger point where The People are going to uniformly Rise Up against the government without being brutally smashed down?  It didn't happen with Japanese internment, it didn't happen when black activists were having their row house LITERALLY BOMBED BY THE GOV'T in the middle of Philadelphia, it didn't happen in Waco.  What is the threshold?

Lets make this simple. IF the US government started committing atrocities against the majority of American citizens, then said citizens have a way to somewhat protect themselves and fight back. The government can't send drones, bombs, and missiles to the majority of Americans homes. The US military would be highly incapacitated without the US citizens. Throughout history governments around the world have exterminated millions upon millions of lives. That fact is not in dispute.

It sounds like you are saying that designating firearm as a regulated class III weapon has been very effective at keeping them out of the hands of criminals, and that a complete ban on private sales of post-1986 automatic weapons has had ~100% success in removing them from the market (both white and black market).  Perhaps you would like to rephrase.
You didn't say people "don't" buy fully automatic firearms made after 1986; you said they "can't."  If gun control laws don't work, what difference does 1986 make in whether or not you can buy an NFA gun?  Why can't you just buy a post-1986 fully-auto firearm on the all-powerful black market?

The answer is that sufficiently strong gun laws DO work, and the NFA is a prime example.

Why in the hell would ANYONE go through the trouble and cost of buying a Class III weapon when you can go to Bass Pro Shop and buy an AR15 that does the same fucking thing? I didn't go through the trouble of buying a professional router because the Dremel tool attachment I got at Harbor Freight served the same function. Class III firearms are novelties, they don't do anything special. You're ignorance of firearms and corresponding laws is apparent.

[pondwater]

In other news. Recreational semi auto rifle sales are spiking. Democrats are the best firearm salesmen ever. The more you cry, the more firearms in the wild. How ironic, LMFAO...

[Spider-Dan]

Lets make this simple. IF the US government started committing atrocities against the majority of American citizens, then said citizens have a way to somewhat protect themselves and fight back.

You have just neatly pointed out why the 2nd Amendment is both useless and redundant.

The government isn't going to commit atrocities against the majority (specifically: those with political power), because that's not how politics works!  Any atrocities that are being committed are going to be against a vulnerable minority (e.g. German Jews or Japanese-Americans in the 1940s), and the people who are shouting loudest about defending yourself from government tyranny with your sidearm will be the same people giving thunderous applause when the government starts rounding up Muslims.

The 2nd Amendment is useless when it comes to protecting yourself from the government, precisely because anyone who needs a gun to protect themselves from the government is not politically powerful enough to deter the government from responding with crushing brutality when they try to offer armed resistance.  You appear to be under the delusion that if all the German Jews in the '30s had handguns, everything would have been fine (or even appreciably better), when in reality any Jew in Germany that tried to stand up to the SS would have been brutally slaughtered with the entire force of the Nazi state.  The same goes for any of the other populations you cited.

Do you honestly believe that Japanese-Americans in the '40s could have drawn pistols on the federal officials come to take them from their homes, and accomplished anything but getting their family massacred?  I mean, that's EXACTLY the kind of government tyranny you're ranting about, and the 2nd Amendment was completely worthless.

Why in the hell would ANYONE go through the trouble and cost of buying a Class III weapon when you can go to Bass Pro Shop and buy an AR15 that does the same fucking thing?

You're the one who was just crowing that no murders have been committed with Class III weapons, so I'm not sure why you brought that up in the first place.  And the law enforcement and military organizations that continue to purchase Class III weapons seem to believe that they are, in fact, different than non-NFA firearms, so I guess you'd have to ask them why they continue to buy those more expensive weapons if they indeed do "the same fucking thing."

But I would like an answer on why post-1986 NFA weapons are any harder to get than pre-1986 NFA weapons.  If gun control laws don't make a difference, and you can just buy them on the black market anyway, why would anyone buy a 30-year-old fully-auto weapon when they can just buy a brand new one?

[pondwater]

You have just neatly pointed out why the 2nd Amendment is both useless and redundant.

The government isn't going to commit atrocities against the majority (specifically: those with political power), because that's not how politics works!  Any atrocities that are being committed are going to be against a vulnerable minority (e.g. German Jews or Japanese-Americans in the 1940s), and the people who are shouting loudest about defending yourself from government tyranny with your sidearm will be the same people giving thunderous applause when the government starts rounding up Muslims.

The 2nd Amendment is useless when it comes to protecting yourself from the government, precisely because anyone who needs a gun to protect themselves from the government is not politically powerful enough to deter the government from responding with crushing brutality when they try to offer armed resistance.  You appear to be under the delusion that if all the German Jews in the '30s had handguns, everything would have been fine (or even appreciably better), when in reality any Jew in Germany that tried to stand up to the SS would have been brutally slaughtered with the entire force of the Nazi state.  The same goes for any of the other populations you cited.

Do you honestly believe that Japanese-Americans in the '40s could have drawn pistols on the federal officials come to take them from their homes, and accomplished anything but getting their family massacred?  I mean, that's EXACTLY the kind of government tyranny you're ranting about, and the 2nd Amendment was completely worthless.

You don't like it? Get a constitutional convention together and change the constitution. Otherwise good luck in your silly quest.

You're the one who was just crowing that no murders have been committed with Class III weapons, so I'm not sure why you brought that up in the first place.

 I brought it up because your buddy Sunstroke said, "Ban automatic weapons entirely." There is no need to ban something that's not a problem.

And the law enforcement and military organizations that continue to purchase Class III weapons seem to believe that they are, in fact, different than non-NFA firearms, so I guess you'd have to ask them why they continue to buy those more expensive weapons if they indeed do "the same fucking thing."

I don't have to ask them, I know from experience. Do you even know how firearms work? Have you ever shot an AR15? Have you ever shot a fully automatic firearm? You sound like you watch too many shoot 'em up and war movies.

But I would like an answer on why post-1986 NFA weapons are any harder to get than pre-1986 NFA weapons.  If gun control laws don't make a difference, and you can just buy them on the black market anyway, why would anyone buy a 30-year-old fully-auto weapon when they can just buy a brand new one?

Post 1986 Class III weapons are only sold to military and law enforcement. Who said anything about buying Class III weapons on the black market? Yes, why would someone buy a 30 year old Class III weapon when they can go to the local gun shop and get the legal and just as effective equivalent much cheaper. 

[Spider-Dan]

I don't have to ask them, I know from experience.

Are you a military or law enforcement officer in charge of procuring weapons?
If not, I humbly suggest that you have absolutely no idea why they continue to purchase these useless Class III weapons instead of cheaper weapons that are "just as effective."

Post 1986 Class III weapons are only sold to military and law enforcement.

The casual reader may not understand what you are actually trying to say here.  Let me spell it out more clearly:

Any fully automatic weapon made after 1986 is illegal to sell to the public.

And this gun ban is SO EFFECTIVE that you don't think it's even worth trying to buy a post-1986 Class III weapon!  (What happened to the people having access to the same weapons as the government?)  The almighty black market, which normally lets you buy whatever weapon you want because criminals don't obey the law, was effectively rendered impotent for new class III weapons by the additional gun control laws signed by Reagan during his second term.

Gun.
Bans.
Work.

All you have to do is choose to enforce them.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Well here is one thing we absolutely know does no fucking good....having an armed uniformed officer at the school.  A lazy piece of shit with a gun won't stop a bad guy with a gun.  Mother fucker should be shot for dereliction of duty.

[pondwater]

Are you a military or law enforcement officer in charge of procuring weapons?
If not, I humbly suggest that you have absolutely no idea why they continue to purchase these useless Class III weapons instead of cheaper weapons that are "just as effective."

I interact with them on a regular basis. Not only that, I have actual hands on experience with the weapons we're discussing. DO YOU? It's amazing that you presume to know what I know. You are ignorant on the topic and just spouting political talking points. You must think that every round that comes out the barrel when dumping a mag in 2-3 seconds automatically hits a different moving target. Go out to the range and fire each type of weapon and then tell me which is more effective at hitting multiple moving targets while under pressure and reloading every 3-4 seconds. Until then, you don't know shit about what you're talking about.

The casual reader may not understand what you are actually trying to say here.  Let me spell it out more clearly:

Any fully automatic weapon made after 1986 is illegal to sell to the public.

And this gun ban is SO EFFECTIVE that you don't think it's even worth trying to buy a post-1986 Class III weapon!  (What happened to the people having access to the same weapons as the government?)  The almighty black market, which normally lets you buy whatever weapon you want because criminals don't obey the law, was effectively rendered impotent for new class III weapons by the additional gun control laws signed by Reagan during his second term.

Gun.
Bans.
Work.

All you have to do is choose to enforce them.

There is no black market for Class III weapons because there is no functional use for Class III weapons when you can get the legal equivalent easily. I don't see much of a black market for R12 refrigerant because it's phased out and R134a is readily available and effectively serves the same purpose. Go google the effectiveness of fully auto hand held rifles. You might learn something. https://www.military.com/kitup/2011/12/full-auto-battlefield-necessity.html

[Spider-Dan]

I interact with them on a regular basis. Not only that, I have actual hands on experience with the weapons we're discussing. DO YOU? It's amazing that you presume to know what I know. You are ignorant on the topic and just spouting political talking points. You must think that every round that comes out the barrel when dumping a mag in 2-3 seconds automatically hits a different moving target. Go out to the range and fire each type of weapon and then tell me which is more effective at hitting multiple moving targets while under pressure and reloading every 3-4 seconds. Until then, you don't know shit about what you're talking about.

Instead of telling this to me, you should be telling this to the military and law enforcement officials who are still buying these "useless" class III weapons.
Tell THEM that they don't know how to do their jobs, and that you - a civilian with no actual military or law enforcement experience? - are much more knowledgeable on the tactical needs of their organizations than they are.

I am forced to wonder why you, personally, believe these weapons continue to be manufactured.  I mean, according to you semi-automatic weapons are LITERALLY superior.  Is this all some sort of chemtrail conspiracy to scam taxpayers out of money for weapons that don't do anything?  I guess it must be a global conspiracy, since the militaries of other countries also seem to be using fully-automatic weapons.

And just to clear this up and spare everyone more stories about your previous life as a munitions specialist: I'm not the one making an appeal (over the internet) to his own authority as a weapons expert.  You have no more reason to believe such an unsubstantiated claim than I have to believe yours.  I am making an appeal to the authority of law enforcement and military organizations who appear to believe that fully-automatic weapons are indeed useful, and have continued to purchase them since 1986.

There is no black market for Class III weapons because there is no functional use for Class III weapons when you can get the legal equivalent easily.

You're evading the question.

If gun control laws don't work, why is it any easier to buy a class III weapon made before 1986 than it is to buy one made after 1986?
"You don't need to buy one anyway" is not an answer.

[pondwater]

Instead of telling this to me, you should be telling this to the military and law enforcement officials who are still buying these "useless" class III weapons.
Tell THEM that they don't know how to do their jobs, and that you - a civilian with no actual military or law enforcement experience? - are much more knowledgeable on the tactical needs of their organizations than they are.

I am forced to wonder why you, personally, believe these weapons continue to be manufactured.  I mean, according to you semi-automatic weapons are LITERALLY superior.  Is this all some sort of chemtrail conspiracy to scam taxpayers out of money for weapons that don't do anything?  I guess it must be a global conspiracy, since the militaries of other countries also seem to be using fully-automatic weapons.

And just to clear this up and spare everyone more stories about your previous life as a munitions specialist: I'm not the one making an appeal (over the internet) to his own authority as a weapons expert.  You have no more reason to believe such an unsubstantiated claim than I have to believe yours.  I am making an appeal to the authority of law enforcement and military organizations who appear to believe that fully-automatic weapons are indeed useful, and have continued to purchase them since 1986.

I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I simply stated the obvious. Why don't you answer the question. DO YOU HAVE ANY HANDS ON EXPERIENCE WITH A FULLY and/or SEMI AUTO FIREARM? Obviously you didn't read the article that I linked or use the resource of Google to enlighten yourself about the topic. Fully automatic fire is used for SPECIFIC purposes and only effective when you are highly trained. Most mass shootings aren't carried out by people who have been trained at all, much less highly trained. Please list some recent mass shooters that were "highly trained" with an fully auto weapon.

You're evading the question.

If gun control laws don't work, why is it any easier to buy a class III weapon made before 1986 than it is to buy one made after 1986?
"You don't need to buy one anyway" is not an answer.

You don't even make sense. Post 1986 Class III weapons are not sold to the public. In life, most people take the path of least resistance. There is no black market because there is no market due to the LEGAL availability of an equivalent alternative. Regardless, unless you plan on banning ALL semi auto weapons then you're wasting you time. And since that isn't going to happen anytime during our lifetime, you lose this debate.

[Sunstroke]

 I brought it up because your buddy Sunstroke said, "Ban automatic weapons entirely." There is no need to ban something that's not a problem.

First, I dislike Spidey almost as much as I dislike you, just for completely different annoying reasons. It would be like me saying to you "Your buddy Charles Manson...," just because I equate both you and Manson with "fucked up in the head."

Second, automatic weapons, in the hands of anyone other than the military, are nothing but a problem. Please feel free to cite any positive activities/hunting/sports that involve a fucking machine gun.

P.S. No, robbing banks doesn't count as a positive activity...

[Cathal]

pondwater, you have just supported the idea that banning items work. You really should re-think your stance.

[Spider-Dan]

I never claimed to be an expert on anything.

If you aren't claiming to be an expert, why do you keep trying to compare your (meaningless layman) "expertise" to my equally meaningless "expertise"?  Neither one of us are qualified to speak on why military and law enforcement continue to purchase Class III weapons, yet you keep pretending to be an authority on the subject.

Post 1986 Class III weapons are not sold to the public.

They are "not sold to the public" because of the 1986 gun control law banning sales of them to the public, which is the entire point!

You and CF are claiming that gun bans don't work because of the all-powerful black market, yet there IS no black market for post-1986 NFA weapons, and even pre-1986 NFA weapons are also effectively unavailable.

The 1986 Class III gun control law PROVES that gun bans work!

[Fau Teixeira]

Just ban all semi-automatics as well.