Vaccine Hesitancy

[Fau Teixeira]

Far be it for me to force anyone to get a vaccination, their body .. their decision ..
I think that's what being pro-choice is all about.

on the other hand, them not getting vaccinated means they can transmit covid to other people, so while we can't force people to get the vaccine, we can make sure that only those that are vaccinated are allowed to participate in activities where there's a high concentration of people in one location for an extended period of time where social distancing isn't practical. These could include, classrooms, airplanes, and other essential activities.

Of course, I don't want to infringe on the private sector more than absolutely necessary to ensure public safety. So I can't see government prohibiting private businesses from requiring vaccinations for non-essential things like cruises, theme park admissions, concerts or sporting events. We aren't communist china after all.

[Pappy13]

It's directly helpful to you and indirectly helpful to everyone.

Yeah, how did that work for mask wearing?

[Spider-Dan]

I've read that as much as 40% of the population will have no symptoms from getting Covid-19 and another 40% may only have mild symptoms. That's 80% of those infected that would have mild or no symptoms at all and that's only of those infected.

If we presume these statistics are accurate, some quick napkin math tells us that means 20% of those infected can expect of have serious symptoms (including death).  This is for a highly contagious disease, mind you.

If a 20% chance of serious medical complications from an extremely contagious disease is not enough to drive action, why do we have vaccines at all?  Why do we have laws against drunk driving, or laws that require hand washing in food service?

20% is not a "low chance."  20% is terrifyingly high.

Yeah, how did that work for mask wearing?

Vaccines and masks are almost exactly opposites in function.

Masks significantly reduce your chance of spreading COVID, but don't do a whole lot to stop you from catching it.
Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID (especially with serious symptoms), but you can still potentially spread it even while vaccinated.

You can't really compare the decision-making behind the two options.

[ArtieChokePhin]

Other than the "microchip" and "it changes my DNA" crowd, it seems there a lot of people who are cautious about how quickly the vaccines came out and didn't have the longevity of testing other vaccines have.  I get it.  I decided to go ahead and get my shot because I think I'll be fine and I get to go back into the world without much to worry about, but I understand why people don't want to get it.

This right  here.  I've had quite a few friends develop full blown COVID symptoms after getting it.  I've also had three friends have heart attacks and one other one had a stroke.  Yours truly will not be getting the vaccine and neither will any members of my family.

Far be it for me to force anyone to get a vaccination, their body .. their decision ..
I think that's what being pro-choice is all about.

on the other hand, them not getting vaccinated means they can transmit covid to other people, so while we can't force people to get the vaccine, we can make sure that only those that are vaccinated are allowed to participate in activities where there's a high concentration of people in one location for an extended period of time where social distancing isn't practical. These could include, classrooms, airplanes, and other essential activities.

Of course, I don't want to infringe on the private sector more than absolutely necessary to ensure public safety. So I can't see government prohibiting private businesses from requiring vaccinations for non-essential things like cruises, theme park admissions, concerts or sporting events. We aren't communist china after all.

What difference does it make??   If I don't have the vaccine but you do, you're safe around me weather I have COVID or not.  For the government to not allow unvaccinated people to travel or go into crowded places would be equivalent to Communist China.  And if private businesses make the decision to pull that shit, they stand to lose a lot of business.

[Dave Gray]

For the government to not allow unvaccinated people to travel or go into crowded places would be equivalent to Communist China.  And if private businesses make the decision to pull that shit, they stand to lose a lot of business.

He's not suggesting that "the government not allow" (nobody is, by the way).  It's IF businesses don't allow, like Carnival makes you prove vaccination to go on one of their cruises, he's suggesting that it would be bad if the government made it against the law to prove vaccination.

As far as businesses losing a lot of business, it goes both ways.  I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to choose a vaccinated option over not, if such a choice exists. 

[Fau Teixeira]

What difference does it make??   If I don't have the vaccine but you do, you're safe around me weather I have COVID or not.  For the government to not allow unvaccinated people to travel or go into crowded places would be equivalent to Communist China.  And if private businesses make the decision to pull that shit, they stand to lose a lot of business.

The difference is that not everyone can get vaccinated, not everyone builds an immunity through vaccines. Those that are immunocompromised will not receive immunity from a vaccine. People may be allergic to the vaccine's ingredients. People may have leukemia and have a very poor immune response. There are plenty of reasons.

To your other point, government via schools already mandates vaccinations. Government mandates way more vaccinations when you apply for a green card. Universities require vaccination records. It's already how society works. What makes you think you have any rights to put other people at risk?  If you don't want a covid shot .. cool .. that's on you .. but don't whine about it when you aren't permitted to endanger other people.

And private businesses already have rules .. try walking into anywhere with no shoes or shirts. Cruise lines are in fact already mandating vaccination records for anyone booking now. It's already happening.

[Fau Teixeira]

He's not suggesting that "the government not allow" (nobody is, by the way).

No, I very specifically am suggesting the government not allow, the same way they already don't allow kids to go to school without vaccinations.
https://www.noshotsnoschool.com/

Or people to immigrate without a TB test and a whole slew of shots.
https://www.uscis.gov/tools/designated-civil-surgeons/vaccination-requirements

Why is this a surprise to anyone? This is already how society works. What's to prevent anyone from adding a covid-19 vaccination to those lists? How is that any different.

[Pappy13]

If we presume these statistics are accurate, some quick napkin math tells us that means 20% of those infected can expect of have serious symptoms (including death).  This is for a highly contagious disease, mind you.

20% is not a "low chance."  20% is terrifyingly high.

20% of those with Covid will have something more than mild symptoms. Don't exaggerate what that 20% indicates, it just means if you have Covid you'll have something more than mild symptoms, could just be what I had which was 2 weeks of being sick. The odds that you will actually require hospitalization if you have Covid is around 5% and the odds of death if you have Covid are under 2%. Those numbers also don't take into account if you are high risk or not, obviously if you not high risk your chances of being hospitalized or death if you have Covid are even lower. Those are VERY low odds in my opinion.

Again, I can't stress enough that in my opinion ANY chance of death should be reason enough to get a vaccine, but that's not how everyone thinks obviously. A lot of people think "it won't happen to me". This has been true forever. It's things like this that remind us of that fact.

[Pappy13]

Vaccines and masks are almost exactly opposites in function.

Masks significantly reduce your chance of spreading COVID, but don't do a whole lot to stop you from catching it.
Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID (especially with serious symptoms), but you can still potentially spread it even while vaccinated.

You can't really compare the decision-making behind the two options.

So then you disagree with Dave? This statement above is misleading "Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID". Vaccines reduce your chance of developing a severe infection, they help you fight off the infection they don't prevent passing it on or at least we don't know how well they do that yet. As you mentioned people that have been vaccinated can still carry the virus and spread it to others. Eliminating the virus is not really the goal of vaccinations at least not yet. Getting the vaccine is a personal choice because what we know is it prevents the person getting vaccinated from getting the disease should they be infected by the virus whereas wearing a mask and social distancing is more of a social norm to help prevent others from getting infected as many people may be carrying the virus and not realize it especially now that they have been vaccinated. Would you agree with that?

[ArtieChokePhin]

No, I very specifically am suggesting the government not allow, the same way they already don't allow kids to go to school without vaccinations.
https://www.noshotsnoschool.com/

That needs to stop too.  Some parents want their kids to auto immune by contracting the disease.  Vaccines have been linked to ASD studies.

[Phishfan]

That needs to stop too.  Some parents want their kids to auto immune by contracting the disease.  Vaccines have been linked to ASD studies.

Falsely linked.

[Fau Teixeira]

That needs to stop too.  Some parents want their kids to auto immune by contracting the disease.  Vaccines have been linked to ASD studies.

Don't care, those parents can home school their kids. I don't want them in a classroom with my kid. They live in a society of rules and laws.

[Spider-Dan]

20% of those with Covid will have something more than mild symptoms. Don't exaggerate what that 20% indicates, it just means if you have Covid you'll have something more than mild symptoms, could just be what I had which was 2 weeks of being sick. The odds that you will actually require hospitalization if you have Covid is around 5% and the odds of death if you have Covid are under 2%.

5% risk of hospitalization from an incredibly contagious disease is extremely high.
2% risk of hospitalization from an incredibly contagious disease is extremely high.
You're not going to have much success in downplaying the danger represented by COVID when it has killed nearly 600,000 Americans in the last 13 months.

This statement above is misleading "Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID". Vaccines reduce your chance of getting Covid-19 from getting infected with the virus, they help fight off the disease they don't prevent infection or at least we don't know how well they do that yet. As you mentioned people that have been vaccinated can still carry the virus and spread it to others.

It's not a misleading statement at all.

- Being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of testing positive for COVID.
- Being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of serious symptoms if you do catch it.
- Being vaccinated all but eliminates your chances of being hospitalized by oy dying from COVID.

Which one of those three statements do you think is misleading, if any?

Eliminating the virus is not really the goal of vaccinations at least not yet.

WTF?  Of course it is!

The longer unvaccinated people are running around, the longer the pandemic will continue and the greater the chance for vaccine-resistant COVID strains to develop.  A fully-vaccinated population drastically curbs the ability for new strains to develop, because the virus cannot gain a foothold long enough to mutate.

Getting the vaccine is a personal choice because what we know is it prevents the person getting vaccinated from getting the disease should they be infected by the virus whereas wearing a mask and social distancing is more of a social norm to help prevent others from getting infected as many people may be carrying the virus and not realize it especially now that they have been vaccinated. Would you agree with that?

No, I would not.

Both vaccinations and masks are safety measures taken to stop the spread of COVID.  Masks primarily work to stop you from giving the virus to others, while the vaccines primarily work to stop you from catching the virus from others.  Both measures are important until the pandemic is over.

[Dave Gray]

As it stands, I'm against the government making you do it, so far as holding you down and sticking your arm against your will.

But I'm all for the public sector, mostly insurance companies, entertainment companies, employers (especially that have travel as part of the job), private colleges and travel companies mandating that you're vaccinated to participate.  School will be a big step.  We already require a host of vaccines to go to school now and we should just add this to the list.

It's a matter of public health.


----

I'm watching a show (the entire thing is available on YouTube) called Wartime Farm.  It's a BBC thing where a historian and 2 archaeologists run a farm with the standards and technology of World War II in England.  The amount of sacrifice that the people of that country made in order to win that war is pretty amazing.  Everyone had to come together and do stuff they didn't want to.  A lot of it was mandated, but much of it was just communities doing more and taking less, so that they could survive.  ....and they came really close to starving to death.

It just made me a little sad that I don't think we, as a group, are capable of anything like that anymore.

[Pappy13]

- Being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of testing positive for COVID.

Which one of those three statements do you think is misleading, if any?

This one. There's very little evidence of this because there hasn't been a whole lot of testing. There's speculation and there's been some evidence that being vaccinated lowers your chances of being infected should you be exposed to the virus but it's certainly not been proven nor by how much. Being vaccinated lowers your chances of getting sick from the virus. We know for a fact that you can still be infected and can still pass on the virus and can still test positive for COVID even after you have been fully vaccinated. The fact that you don't get sick does NOT mean that you are not infected. This is why they are still recommending that you wear a mask around those that are not vaccinated and are at high risk even after you have been vaccinated. You could very well pass on the virus to them if you are infected even though you are not sick. You may not even know you have the virus because generally speaking we don't test people for the virus if they have don't have any symptoms of the virus. The only way we really know that you can still have the virus is because people that have been fully vaccinated have then been tested for the virus and tested positive despite the fact they did not have any symptoms. In effect being fully vaccinated is akin to being asymptomic of the virus. It doesn't mean you can't be infected it means you won't get sick from it. There's more research required to see if it actually does lower your chances of being infected and there's some evidence of that but it's too early to know for sure or how much.

WTF?  Of course it is!

That's the LONG term goal but that wasn't the initial goal of the vaccines. The initial goal of the vaccines was to prevent you from getting sick and dieing from the virus. There hasn't been much testing to see if it actually prevents the spread of the virus because as long as it was preventing you from being hospitalized or dieing that was enough reason to start vaccinating people. It's a start. The long term goal is to get rid of the virus completely but we don't know that the vaccines we currently have will do that or to what degree they will do that. Unless there has been some newer evidence that I'm not aware of.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-vaccines-probably-prevent-spread/