Stealing home

[dolphins4life]

What if there are two strikes and the ball hits the runner as he crosses the plate?    What if there are two outs and two strikes and the runner scores before the pitch reaches the plate before the ball gets there, and it is strike three?   Does the run count?   If the ball is strike three before the runner reaches the plate and there are two outs, is the inning over?

[Pappy13]

What if there are two strikes and the ball hits the runner as he crosses the plate?

A hit batter is a dead ball situation which means that runners cannot advance. The batter would take first base and the runner would have to return to 3rd base unless the bases were already full and then he would be allowed to advance and score.

Edit: Oops I read your question wrong. If a thrown ball hits a runner it's a live ball which means that all the other rules apply as if the player was not hit with the ball. Since the runner would not have been tagged out, he's safe. The pitch would count as a ball since it did not go through the strike zone unless the batter were to swing in which case it would be called a strike and if that were strike 3 and and the 3rd out in the inning the run would not count.

What if there are two outs and two strikes and the runner scores before the pitch reaches the plate before the ball gets there, and it is strike three?  Does the run count? If the ball is strike three before the runner reaches the plate and there are two outs, is the inning over?

Either way the inning is over if the batter is called out. It doesn't matter if the runner crosses the plate first or not but this is practically impossible anyway.

The only time that crossing the plate first matters is in the case of a player successfully reaching first base on a play but then a 3rd out being recorded subsequently during that play. If a runner crosses the plate before the 3rd out is recorded after the batter has reached first base safely then the run counts. For example if there's a runner on second and the batter singles and then tries to stretch it into a double and gets tagged out at 2nd then if the runner on second scored before that happens the run counts. The easy way to think of it is the batter is still the batter till he reaches first base successfully then he becomes a runner. If a batter makes the 3rd out, the inning is over and runs are not scored on the play however if a runner makes the 3rd out then any runners which scored before that runner made the 3rd out count.

An interesting play would be on a double steal. Suppose there are runners on 1st and 3rd with 2 outs. Let suppose on the pitch the runner on first attempts to steal 2nd base and the catcher throws to 2nd and at that point the runner on 3rd tries to advance and score. If the runner trying to steal 2nd is tagged out but that happens after the runner on 3rd crossed home plate that run would count so a tactic that you will sometimes see tried is the runner trying to steal 2nd purposely stops before reaching 2nd so that he can't be tagged out in an attempt to get the runner on 3rd home before the 3rd out is made. It's tricky and hard to pull off, but I've seen it happen.

[Phishfan]

There are a lot of variables. Was the pitcher throwing the pitch or did he step off the rubber and throw to get him out? If it is a legal pitch did the runner interfere with the catcher?

[dolphins4life]

I was watching a compilation of stealing home.  Often when the catcher sees the runner coming, he gets out of his crouch and the pitcher throws to the baseball to him, meaning it is out of the strike zone.  But if what Pappy says is true, if there are two strikes and two outs, why not simply focus on getting the pitch in the strike zone?

[dolphins4life]

There are a lot of variables. Was the pitcher throwing the pitch or did he step off the rubber and throw to get him out?

                  Isn't that a balk? 

[Pappy13]

But if what Pappy says is true, if there are two strikes and two outs, why not simply focus on getting the pitch in the strike zone?

I would say that's true however you are then assuming the batter is not going to swing. It could be a suicide squeeze play and the batter bunts (although not likely with 2 outs and 2 strikes). You can't just throw the ball down the middle of the plate as the batter may swing at it regardless of what the runner is doing. Typically speaking though you are correct when there is an attempted steal of home the batter moves out of the way assuming he's batting from the right handed batters box, but if there are 2 outs and 2 strikes they are probably not going to attempt to steal home in that case because you are essentially taking the bat away from the batter. I would say the large majority of attempts to steal home are with less than 2 outs and 2 strikes.

[Phishfan]

                  Isn't that a balk? 

Pitchers step off the rubber to throw all the time. The method is what makes it a balk or not.

[Pappy13]

                 Isn't that a balk?  

If you step towards home once you are on the rubber and become "set" then that's a pitch. It would only be a balk if you stepped toward home and threw to a base or vice versa. You can only step towards a base if you are attempting to pick off a runner at a base or step "back" off the rubber to throw to a fielder but then you could throw home after stepping off the rubber. I don't think that matters in this case as either way a runner hit by a ball is a live ball whether it's pitched or thrown. The only difference would be if the ball hits the batter when thrown rather than pitched it's not a hit batter. I'm not sure exactly what would happen if you tried to throw home after stepping off the rubber to prevent a runner from stealing home and the ball hit the batter. That may be a dead ball and the runner would have to return to 3rd base regardless if he scored or not so what might be an even better question is if there's an attempted steal of home why not just throw at the batter? The worst case scenario is the batter gets out of the way and you fail to tag the runner out. If the batter is hit he would take first base but the runner would have to return to 3rd even if he crossed the plate before that happened. The best case scenario would be the batter gets out of the way of the pitch and you are able to tag the runner out. Perhaps that's why you see the catcher getting out of his crouch because the pitcher should be throwing the ball towards the 3rd base side of the plate in order to tag the runner out even if the batter is standing there.

[dolphins4life]

I would say that's true however you are then assuming the batter is not going to swing. It could be a suicide squeeze play and the batter bunts (although not likely with 2 outs and 2 strikes). You can't just throw the ball down the middle of the plate as the batter may swing at it regardless of what the runner is doing. Typically speaking though you are correct when there is an attempted steal of home the batter moves out of the way assuming he's batting from the right handed batters box, but if there are 2 outs and 2 strikes they are probably not going to attempt to steal home in that case because you are essentially taking the bat away from the batter. I would say the large majority of attempts to steal home are with less than 2 outs and 2 strikes.

Not in the compilation I saw. Many of them had two strikes two outs or both

[Pappy13]

Not in the compilation I saw. Many of them had two strikes two outs or both

Link please. I just went to you tube and watched a "stealing home compliation" and watched about half of it which was probably about 15 to 20 different plays and there was only 1 steal that I saw where you could see there were 2 strikes and 2 outs. 2 Outs or 2 strikes is fairly common, but not 2 strikes and 2 outs which is the scenario you were talking about. On top of that only about 1/2 the attempts I watched were actually a straight steal of home plate. Most of the plays were either a delayed steal which is stealing home not when the pitcher is on the rubber but rather when the catcher is throwing the ball back to the pitcher or in several cases the catcher is throwing to first or 3rd base in an attempt to get a runner out and then the runner steals home or a suicide squeeze play where the batter is trying to bunt the run in which is again not the scenario you are talking about. In a delayed steal the catcher of course is out of his crouch because it's not even during the pitch it's after the pitch and for suicide squeeze the catcher is out of his crouch to field the bunt and in fact pitchers are taught and will often purposely throw outside the strike zone when a batter is trying to bunt to make it harder for them to bunt the ball. You can even see an example of this in one play where the batter squares around to bunt, the catcher gets out of his crouch and pushes his glove towards the ground which indicates to the pitcher to throw the ball low. The scenario you are talking about is quite rare at least in modern baseball. Maybe 50 years ago it was a thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdahb4ioRfw&t=257s

[dolphins4life]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3YWrSYg594  The first two in this video were with two strikes and two outs.  If the pitcher steps off and throws home, does that count as a pitch?

[Pappy13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3YWrSYg594  The first two in this video were with two strikes and two outs.  If the pitcher steps off and throws home, does that count as a pitch?

No. The 2nd one in the video the pitcher takes his foot off the rubber and places it behind it and then throws home, that is not a pitch.