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Author Topic: Would you kneel it out?  (Read 3529 times)
Pappy13
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2022, 09:42:52 am »

In other words, the teams are working in concert to directly fix the outcome of the game (i.e. collusion).  Do you understand why this is a major problem in a professional sports league?
Yeah, I understand why it's a problem which is why there needs to be a rule against it so that teams can't do it. Right now there is nothing preventing it, which is EXACTLY what the announcers in that game were talking about right before the game went to overtime. I don't think any coaches would actually do it, but just saying that it can never happen isn't stopping it from happening, a rule preventing it would.
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stinkfish
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2022, 09:58:53 am »

Michaels and Collinsworth were tongue in cheek about the Raiders and Chargers game being played purposefully to a tie. They were not advocating for that game to be "thrown".
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Pappy13
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2022, 12:42:42 pm »

Michaels and Collinsworth were tongue in cheek about the Raiders and Chargers game being played purposefully to a tie. They were not advocating for that game to be "thrown".
No of course they were not advocating it but they weren't saying it was out of the question either. They were both insinuating that it's a problem which it is. There needs to be a rule in place to prevent it becoming an issue again.
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2022, 01:34:36 pm »

^ There is a rule.

If both teams kneel, that's collusion.  If one team kneels, fully in control of the outcome, it's not.

Once the Raiders could run out the clock and not lose the game, they'd be free to kneel all they want and that would be ethically fine and within the spirit of the game.
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Pappy13
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2022, 03:08:21 pm »

^ There is a rule.

If both teams kneel, that's collusion.  If one team kneels, fully in control of the outcome, it's not.

Once the Raiders could run out the clock and not lose the game, they'd be free to kneel all they want and that would be ethically fine and within the spirit of the game.
For the final time I'm going to say this, I never said anything about KNEELING every play, in fact I've said several times that I'm NOT talking about KNEELING every play, just running the ball, punting on 4th down and playing conservatively the way teams do when they have a lead. I'm also only talking about in overtime, not during regulation.

Technically I was talking about the start of overtime, could be just sort of a wink and a nod with the other head coach, but still bad form, yes I agree. But would it get reprisal from the NFL? Not sure about that. I'm sure they would deny that it happened. I'm not saying kneel down on every play, just sort of don't play to win. That's pretty much what resting your starters is in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 05:01:21 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2022, 03:24:36 pm »

Playing conservatively isn't collusion.  But if both teams are intentionally not scoring, that's collusion.  It's the same idea.

Whatever you're talking about, if you're requiring another team to do something so that you can get the outcome you desire, that's collusion.  If you can do it all by yourself, it's not.
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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2022, 03:49:37 pm »

Pappy, I'm pretty sure the NFL already has rules in place against collusion to fix the outcome of a game, so I'm not sure what you're asking for here.

When I said that the teams would be getting a call from New York midgame, I was referring to the league office advising them that their actions are against the rules (and also potentially illegal).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 03:51:37 pm by Spider-Dan » Logged

Pappy13
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2022, 04:45:40 pm »

Playing conservatively isn't collusion.
Agreed

But if both teams are intentionally not scoring, that's collusion.
No it's not as long as they are not working in concert to that effect which is my point. How do you know if both teams are working in concert to produce the desired outcome and not just both teams intentionally playing conservative to avoid a loss and make the playoffs as you mentioned above? They both look the same to the naked eye.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 05:03:31 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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Pappy13
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2022, 04:51:39 pm »

Pappy, I'm pretty sure the NFL already has rules in place against collusion to fix the outcome of a game, so I'm not sure what you're asking for here.

When I said that the teams would be getting a call from New York midgame, I was referring to the league office advising them that their actions are against the rules (and also potentially illegal).
Playing conservatively (IE not trying to score) is not against the rules as long as you are not doing it in concert with the other team. Exactly how can you know for certain whether it's being done in concert with the other team and each team not choosing the same conservative gameplan on their own? For example we already have plays where the offensive player is allowed to score a TD by the defense and they go down on their own accord. That's not collusion, but it most certainly is trying NOT to score. It's a slippery slope that can be leveled by simply changing the rules as I mentioned that if both teams can make the playoffs by way of a tie in the final week of a season and the game is tied at the end of regulation, then the game will continue until a winner is produced. Problem solved. Don't know why this would be an issue unless you are afraid that such a rule might give someone the impression that it could be done without the rule which is EXACTLY what I'm saying. What exactly are you 2 afraid of with a rules change? If that rule were in place this past Sunday during the Raiders/Chargers game the 2 announcers would have had nothing to talk about. The very fact they did talk about it is evidence there is a potential problem to be addressed. Maybe it could just be addressed with a letter to all the teams about the possibility of the league deciding to have both teams forfeit the game in such an event if it seems warranted. Much easier to do that in the off-season than during a game.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 05:14:51 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2022, 12:07:46 am »

Playing conservatively (IE not trying to score) is not against the rules as long as you are not doing it in concert with the other team. Exactly how can you know for certain whether it's being done in concert with the other team and each team not choosing the same conservative gameplan on their own?
The action IS the evidence.  Put simply: you cannot get away with not trying to win if the other team is also not trying to win and a tie benefits you both.  When everyone is well aware that a tie gets both of the teams into the playoffs, you cannot both "coincidentally decide" not to try to win.
Because that's collusion and match fixing.

Are you trying to argue for some version of this where no one can figure out what they're doing?  If this kind of argument actually worked, then the Patriots would have been able to say, "We weren't recording the other team's practice, we were just trying to scout the quality of the field surface, how much space there will be on our sideline, and where our families will be sitting in relation to the bench" and the league office would have to throw up its hands and say "oh well, can't prove anything, guess there's nothing we can do!"  No one is this stupid.
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2022, 09:05:09 am »


Are you trying to argue for some version of this where no one can figure out what they're doing?  If this kind of argument actually worked, then the Patriots would have been able to say, "We weren't recording the other team's practice, we were just trying to scout the quality of the field surface, how much space there will be on our sideline, and where our families will be sitting in relation to the bench" and the league office would have to throw up its hands and say "oh well, can't prove anything, guess there's nothing we can do!"  No one is this stupid.

Lets clarify some things.  The NEP didn’t film other teams practices..  They filmed the teams sidelines which was in clear view of everyone in the stadium.  And their argument was that the rule started that you couldn’t film opposing teams sidelines for use during the game.  The patriots defense was that they weren’t using it during that game but for future.  Despite the rule suggesting what the Patriots did was legal, they were punished and the rule was changed to make the conduct they did now banned. 
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Pappy13
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2022, 10:39:12 am »

The action IS the evidence.  Put simply: you cannot get away with not trying to win if the other team is also not trying to win and a tie benefits you both.  When everyone is well aware that a tie gets both of the teams into the playoffs, you cannot both "coincidentally decide" not to try to win.
Because that's collusion and match fixing.
The action is only evidence that both teams are trying NOT to lose the game. That's it. That's not against the rules. Many teams try this every game, sometimes both at the same time. Why are they not colluding? A tie in this case is a favorable result for both teams. Is that not what every team is doing every single time they step on the field? Didn't BOTH teams go into the game thinking all we need to make the playoffs is to win or TIE? How can you say than when the circumstances are right going for a TIE is evidence of collusion?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 01:36:18 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2022, 02:28:47 pm »

The action is only evidence that both teams are trying NOT to lose the game. That's it. That's not against the rules. Many teams try this every game, sometimes both at the same time. Why are they not colluding? A tie in this case is a favorable result for both teams. Is that not what every team is doing every single time they step on the field? Didn't BOTH teams go into the game thinking all we need to make the playoffs is to win or TIE? How can you say than when the circumstances are right going for a TIE is evidence of collusion?

Huh?  Team want to win, not tie.  Even a team that needs a tie or win to make the playoffs is going to try to win.  Even a team that is behind wants to tie up the game and then take the lead.  Nobody goes into a game seeking a tie.  The best way not to lose a game is to win by a comfortable margin, not trying to tie. 
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dolphins4life
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2022, 03:04:30 pm »

Once in 2006, the Broncos were playing the 49ers.  They could have run out the clock and gotten a tie in overtime, which would have put them in the playoffs.  They went for the win and SF won, putting KC in the playoffs.

I think Ross needs to tell the new coach this:

"If we can get a tie, and a tie gets us in the playoffs TAKE THE TIE!!!!!!!!"   
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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2022, 03:11:24 pm »

Once in 2006, the Broncos were playing the 49ers.  They could have run out the clock and gotten a tie in overtime, which would have put them in the playoffs.  They went for the win and SF won, putting KC in the playoffs.

I think Ross needs to tell the new coach this:

"If we can get a tie, and a tie gets us in the playoffs TAKE THE TIE!!!!!!!!"   

Being able to run out the clock for a tie at the end of OT and make the playoffs is NOT comparable with the proposed situation where neither team attempts to score for 4 quarters of regulation time.
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