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Author Topic: I'm still confused on something  (Read 1417 times)
dolphins4life
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« on: September 18, 2022, 11:11:15 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhYB8OFMaN8

This play was ruled as an interception and an illegal forward pass.  This resulted in a change of possession and a five yard penalty.

Doesn't this mean that coaches could tell their receivers, "If you catch a pass, but are clearly coming down out of bounds, throw the ball forward down the sidelines.  This will result in the catch, minus five yards for an illegal forward pass.

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« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 12:57:02 am by Spider-Dan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2022, 11:44:41 pm »

Sure, but this can essentially never happen in a planned scenario.  It takes freakish athletic ability and twice as much luck.  You would be spending time coaching players on a scenario that’s likely to happen zero times in their career.
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dolphins4life
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2022, 12:36:43 am »

Players catching the ball and landing out of bounds is pretty common.  I don't think you are understanding what I am saying.

In the video, the player throws it to his teammate in bounds.  I am saying just throw it forward or down.  By rule, that should be a catch, which makes no sense

Just tell your receivers, "If you make a catch and are no going to come down in bounds, spike the ball"
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 12:41:09 am by dolphins4life » Logged

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Spider-Dan
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2022, 12:58:19 am »

No, it would be an incomplete pass.

But it can't be an incomplete pass if the ball never touched the ground.  So catching it in the air and throwing it forward to a teammate who catches it is, at worst, an illegal forward pass.  (In many situations that would just be considered a tip, as happened in the game last week when X tipped it to Holland.)
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dolphins4life
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2022, 01:06:12 am »

No, it would be an incomplete pass.

But it can't be an incomplete pass if the ball never touched the ground.  So catching it in the air and throwing it forward to a teammate who catches it is, at worst, an illegal forward pass.  (In many situations that would just be considered a tip, as happened in the game last week when X tipped it to Holland.)

If you possess the ball, and then pass it forward, according to the video I show, it is a catch and penalty.  Therefore, it shouldn't matter if the ball touches the ground or not.  In the video example, even if the teammate dropped it, Dansby should still have gotten credit for the interception. 

And it CAN be an incompletion if the ball never touches the ground.  This happens all the time on out of bounds catches.
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2022, 01:30:07 am »

If you pass the ball forward to a teammate that is out of bounds, it will indeed be an incomplete pass.
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fyo
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2022, 07:51:43 am »

If you possess the ball, and then pass it forward, according to the video I show, it is a catch and penalty.  Therefore, it shouldn't matter if the ball touches the ground or not.  In the video example, even if the teammate dropped it, Dansby should still have gotten credit for the interception.  

And it CAN be an incompletion if the ball never touches the ground.  This happens all the time on out of bounds catches.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

The rules surrounding this are pretty simple, as Spider explained.

If a forward pass is controlled by a player and he gets two feet (or other body part) in bounds (and retains possession if he's going to the ground), it's a catch.

If a player touches a ball in ANY way while being out of bounds, the ball becomes dead and the play is over.

You cannot pass a ball (legal or otherwise) you are not in possession of. You also cannot fumble a ball you are not in possession of.

It is not legal to have two forward passes during one play and all forward passes must occur behind the line of scrimmage (with the definition being that just some part of the player has to be on the line of scrimmage, so the ball and body except for a heel could be beyond the line of scrimmage).

That's pretty much it.

In the case of a player falling out of bounds - but not yet out of bounds - who "catches" a forward pass and throws it forward again, the correct ruling would be: same as "tipped ball" if the player did not possess the ball (two feet or body part in bounds) or illegal forward pass if the player possessed the ball. The defense can always decline the illegal forward pass in case that pass resulted in a turnover.

A ball does not suddenly become "possessed" by a player if he throws it. In fact, all that movement and a release of the ball is likely to increase the odds of an incomplete pass ruling.
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2022, 09:16:54 am »

If you possess the ball, and then pass it forward, according to the video I show, it is a catch and penalty. 

It's only a catch if the ball never touches the ground.  It's essentially a tip forward (illegal) with a catch (legal).  So, the result is a weird case where you get the penalty but after the change of possession, so you take it.

If you just grab the ball and throw it on the ground without landing, it's an incomplete pass.
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fyo
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2022, 10:01:49 am »

It's only a catch if the ball never touches the ground.  It's essentially a tip forward (illegal) with a catch (legal).  So, the result is a weird case where you get the penalty but after the change of possession, so you take it.

If you just grab the ball and throw it on the ground without landing, it's an incomplete pass.

Just to clarify, batting a pass (in any direction) is legal, however if the player is determined to have "control" of the ball (even without completing the catch, which as we know requires other elements), a throw is considered an "illegal bat". This situation is covered explicitly in a note in Section 5, Article 1 (Illegal Bats and Kicks):

Note: If a forward pass that is controlled by a player prior to completing the catch is thrown forward, it is an illegal bat. If it is
caught by a teammate or intercepted by an opponent, the ball remains alive. If it is not caught, the ball is dead when it hits
the ground.
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Dave Gray
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 10:21:03 am »

To help d4l,

There is a distinction here between "having control" and "completing a reception".

In the college play example, the player had control of the ball and threw it forward (that is a penalty).  The 2nd player completed a reception.

In your example, the ball would hit the ground and to my understanding, there would be neither a penalty nor a completed reception.   It would be loss of down on a simple incomplete pass.  (I'm not 100% sure you wouldn't get called for the penalty, even with an incomplete pass, though, making this even less likely to be worth it.)
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Pappy13
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2022, 12:36:45 pm »

If you possess the ball, and then pass it forward, according to the video I show, it is a catch and penalty.  Therefore, it shouldn't matter if the ball touches the ground or not.  In the video example, even if the teammate dropped it, Dansby should still have gotten credit for the interception.  

And it CAN be an incompletion if the ball never touches the ground.  This happens all the time on out of bounds catches.
You're missing the key part of the rule. For a completion (or interception) the ball must be caught in bounds. It's legal to throw or tip the ball back into play TO ANOTHER PLAYER who's inbounds. If you just throw or tip the ball before going out of bounds and no one catches it, then it's just an incomplete pass. Technically the player going out of bounds in that play did not intercept the ball, the person standing in the field of play intercepted the ball.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 12:38:55 pm by Pappy13 » Logged

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MyGodWearsAHoodie
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2022, 01:01:21 pm »

Here is what I am confused about: why was this posted in around the NFL? 

College football has different rules than the NFL. 
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