Is there an explanation for this miracle

[Spider-Dan]

I think there's a BIG difference between seeing into the future and knowing what will happen and causing the outcome.

Not if you created every atom in the entire universe and set it on its defined path.

When God is creating souls, he knows what the destination of that soul will be.
He also knows that if he created them slightly differently - e.g. a little more reckless, or a little more cautious - how that change would affect the outcome.
He chooses to make everyone exactly as they are, with the knowledge and intention of how their life will go.

[Phishfan]

Back to the Future is a horrible example. Marty absolutely made things happen, he changed the course of events. The exact opposite of predestination. You are actually helping make our case.

[Pappy13]

Really?  Can you explain how it would be possible to know that?

Existing in a different timeframe. Our predecessors didn't know a lot of things that we know. Why wouldn't someone from the future know many things that we don't know now? Just because they know the past, doesn't mean they caused the past, they merely are looking back on what occurred. For them, it's not the future, for them it's the past.

This seems to require a fantasy where where a future exists which hasn't happened yet.

All that is required is someone that exists outside of our timeframe.

This is exactly the point.  Back to the Future is a fictional story that doesn't actually follow the laws of nature as we understand them.

It was only an analogy to help you understand, it's not what I believe. What we know to be the laws of nature are evolving constantly and what we perceive as the laws of nature might be very different from what my God perceives. The fact I don't understand it doesn't really mean much, I can imagine a God that does understand.

And even in that universe, characters can make multiple choices which result in very different timelines.

There are not multiple choices, merely multiple timeframes. I live in a different timeframe then my parents. I can look back on the choices they made and know what they are. They had free will to make those choices, but now I know what choices they made. Anyone outside your timeframe can look back in time to see the choice that someone else made in their timeframe. It's only necessary that they exist in that person's future. I believe God exists in all time frames including my future.

[Pappy13]

Back to the Future is a horrible example. Marty absolutely made things happen, he changed the course of events. The exact opposite of predestination. You are actually helping make our case.

It's only an anology to help you understand about timeframes. I'm not suggesting it's the same thing, I'm not suggesting that God can go back in time and change the past, he doesn't. I'm merely trying to help you understand that changing the timeframe changes how you perceive things. In a different timeframe what's the future for you is the past for someone else and someone in your future absolutely would be able to know the choices you made in their past. They can't change them and they certainly didn't cause them, but they would know what they were. That's what I believe my God knows.

[Spider-Dan]

In Back to the Future, the future is not set in stone and your actions change it.
In the Bible Cinematic Universe, the future is already known (by God) and unchangeable.

And once more, importantly: God made people the way they are with the knowledge of which future that would create.

[Pappy13]

Not if you created every atom in the entire universe and set it on its defined path.

I don't believe that my God defined my path or the path of all substance for that matter. He created it, but he did not define it's path.

When God is creating souls, he knows what the destination of that soul will be.

Because he's there when that soul reaches it's destination. It doesn't mean that God chose that destination for him.

He also knows that if he created them slightly differently - e.g. a little more reckless, or a little more cautious - how that change would affect the outcome.
He chooses to make everyone exactly as they are, with the knowledge and intention of how their life will go.

Is this your belief? It's not mine.

[Pappy13]

In Back to the Future, the future is not set in stone and your actions change it.

It's only an analogy, I didn't offer it up as an explanation of God, only how different timeframes affect your perception.

In the Bible Cinematic Universe, the future is already known (by God) and unchangeable.

He knows because he exists in all timeframes, so yes he does know what the future is and no he can't change it. It doesn't mean he caused it to happen that way, he only knows how it turned out after it happened.

And once more, importantly: God made people the way they are with the knowledge of which future that would create.

Having the knowledge of how it turns out is not the same thing as creating it to turn out in that way. You are fundamentally rewriting the belief system of many people including mine.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't believe that my God defined my path or the path of all substance for that matter. He created it, but he did not define it's path.

Do you believe your God is all-knowing?  If so, what you say is logically impossible.

When an omniscient creator makes an atom, he cannot place it "randomly" or give it a "random" trajectory.  When he creates an atom, he necessarily knows the precise future position of that atom for every moment of its existence, based on where he creates it and what initial velocity he gives it... because he also knows the precise position and velocity of every other atom in the universe, and therefore necessarily knows how those other atoms will interact with the atom he just created.  For all eternity.

[Pappy13]

Do you believe your God is all-knowing?  If so, what you say is logically impossible.

So you say. Knowledge does not equal cause for me. You are free to believe what you want. As I have said, I have knowledge of things that have happened in the past. I didn't cause them to happen, so obviously knowledge does not equal cause. It's not logically impossible for me.

When an omniscient creator makes an atom, he cannot place it "randomly" or give it a "random" trajectory.  When he creates an atom, he necessarily knows the precise future position of that atom for every moment of its existence, based on where he creates it and what initial velocity he gives it... because he also knows the precise position and velocity of every other atom in the universe, and therefore necessarily knows how those other atoms will interact with the atom he just created.  For all eternity.

This is your definition of all knowing. It's not mine and not for most of the people that believe in God in my humble opinion. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm simply stating my belief.

By the way, I describe my God as omnipresent, not omniscient. It's a subtle but important distinction.

[Spider-Dan]

If you do not believe your God is all-knowing (i.e. "omniscient"), you aren't talking about the same thing as the rest of us.
I would also say that you aren't talking about the God of the Christian Bible (who is omniscient), but whatever.

[Pappy13]

If you do not believe your God is all-knowing (i.e. "omniscient"), you aren't talking about the same thing as the rest of us.
I would also say that you aren't talking about the God of the Christian Bible (who is omniscient), but whatever.

I don't claim to be of any particular denomination although I was raised Catholic. I also don't believe you have to be of a particular denomination to believe in God or talk about the subject. If you are going to limit the talk to just your definition of God, I guess that does skew the subject matter quite a bit towards your own beliefs.

For the record, I believe omnipresent is an all-knowing God, just not the exact same definition that you understand all-knowing to mean which is why I mentioned it. If you exist everywhere at all times, then you know everything that's ever been which for me is all-knowing. I believe God has been described that way many times.

[pondwater]

He knows because he exists in all timeframes, so yes he does know what the future is and no he can't change it. It doesn't mean he caused it to happen that way, he only knows how it turned out after it happened.

So if he sees a future that he can't change, but is absolute. Then what's the point of doing anything? If God can't change my future, I sure as hell can't

Also, miracles, blessings, and answering prayers would be changing it. Any active outside intervention changes something, no matter how minute.

[Spider-Dan]

If you are going to limit the talk to just your definition of God, I guess that does skew the subject matter quite a bit towards your own beliefs.

You have joined the wrong discussion.  We have been talking about an all-knowing creator this whole time:

Theologically speaking, if god is all knowing, then he'll know exactly how someone would accept or decline a "gift" when given. That's the correlation you're missing.  Unless of course god isn't all knowing or omnipotent.

An omniscient creator cannot roll dice or create a random soul.

How can God know what you're going to do before you do it (which means that the decision is pre-ordained) but then also say that you have free will?  Aren't those two ideas at odds with each other?

If God already knows the outcome then the person never had a choice,  just the illusion of having a choice.

Predestination would be the only theology that makes any sense if God is truly all knowing and all powerful.

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Everyone but you is talking about an omniscient creator that knows literally everything.

[Pappy13]

You have joined the wrong discussion.  We have been talking about an all-knowing creator this whole time:

Fau Tiexeira, Dave, Phishfan and Denver2 all mention God (sometimes referred to as an all knowing God) in your quotes. You're the only one that mentioned an omniscient creator in your quote which I pointed out is different from my understanding of an all-knowing God, but since you seem to object to my presence in the conversation, I'll bow out and let you continue on the discussion without me. Carry on.

[Spider-Dan]

Also, miracles, blessings, and answering prayers would be changing it. Any active outside intervention changes something, no matter how minute.

Strictly speaking, that's not changing the future, because God already knows when he is (and isn't) going to intervene.

It just means that prayer is pointless, because God is going to act according to his plan whether you pray or not.