Is there an explanation for this miracle

[pondwater]

Strictly speaking, that's not changing the future, because God already knows when he is (and isn't) going to intervene.

It just means that prayer is pointless, because God is going to act according to his plan whether you pray or not.

It changes the outcome of my free will decisions. If I'm irrisponsible with money and God blesses me with some kind of winfall. It changes the outcome of my free will decision. If I decide to chain smoke and get cancer and God miraculously cures my cancer. It changes the outcome of my free will decision. Most of the Christians I've dealt with have had a problem with self awareness, accountability, and anywhere from being slightly delusional to full on quacktown delusional. Having said that, I do know quite a few Christians that are good people. And they aren't trying to recruit and sell their PERSONAL relationship with God to me or other people.


*For forum members in this discussion, I don't know you personally. Therefore, my views don't necessarily apply to you.  

[Spider-Dan]

Well, you never had "free will" in the first place, because God decided your entire life's path (including his interventions/blessings/cures) billions of years before he got around to creating you.  That's the point.

[pondwater]

Well, you never had "free will" in the first place, because God decided your entire life's path (including his interventions/blessings/cures) billions of years before he got around to creating you.  That's the point.

Only if he's real. Otherwise we all have free will to somewhat determine our outcomes. I have yet to see any credible evidence of this all good and all powerful being. I'm sure I'll expire before I have any confirmation that such a being exists. Oh well, at least I've seen grainy photos of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster though.

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, of course there is no real "omniscient creator," since we do have free will.
The argument that free will cannot exist if the God of the Bible is as described is used as evidence that said god does not exist.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I think there's a BIG difference between seeing into the future and knowing what will happen and causing the outcome. I think it's very possible to know that the Dolphins will win the 2026 Superbowl without having CAUSED the Dolphins to win the 2026 Superbowl.

Maybe a better example:  I can see into the future and and know that on Sept 21,2025 there will be a solar eclipse in the southern hemisphere.  I am not going to cause the eclipse and I am powerless to prevent the eclipse.  At one time humanity did not the possess the ability to make such a prediction. 

In the past century man's ability to predict the weather has improved greatly. Maybe at sometime in the future we will be able to perfectly predict the path of a hurricane. That is much more likely than us developing the ability to alter the path of a hurricane. 

I can even sometimes predict human behavior. Does my knowing that every morning my neighbor will walk her dog at 7:34 am mean that she doesn't have the free will to walk her dog at 7:33 or 7:35 or not at all?  Does she lack free will or does she just prefer routine?

[Dave Gray]

Maybe a better example:  I can see into the future and and know that on Sept 21,2025 there will be a solar eclipse in the southern hemisphere.

This is a false premise.  You cannot see into the future.  You are making a prediction based on known data.  That's not the same thing.

[Pappy13]

This is a false premise.  You cannot see into the future.  You are making a prediction based on known data.  That's not the same thing.

Sorry to interject again, but Hoodie is making another analogy. Hoodie is not claiming to be a God. However, if there were a God that could exist in a different timeframe than our own and if for him all of the events that will occur for us have already occurred for him (making him all knowing), then he would be looking back at what had happened, not looking into the future at least not for him. My God has already witnessed the solar eclipse that happens on Sept 21, 2025 and all of the subsequent solar eclipses that will happen after that one as well as all the ones that occurred prior to that one. That's the God that I propose and that proposal does not preclude free will.

Again I want to clarify I'm only stating my beliefs. I'm not here to change anyone's mind or argue about it. Everyone is free to have their own opinion, this is just mine. I would like to say though that I'm not the first to propose this God, he has been proposed many times for centuries.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

This is a false premise.  You cannot see into the future.  You are making a prediction based on known data.  That's not the same thing.

Making an accurate prediction based on known data is seeing into the future.  If given enough data and a proper model I could predict the exact paths of hurricanes, earthquakes, which people will commit murder, who will get cancer, and who will become a drug addict, but we don't currently possess the that ability, that does not mean a more intelligent being does not. 

[Spider-Dan]

Y'all are making a false equivalence between predicting the future and creating it.

Even if you (a human) can predict solar eclipses with perfect accuracy: you didn't create the earth and sun!  You didn't put them into motion!  If you are an all-knowing creator, and you created the sun and planets with a given initial velocity, with your perfect understanding of physics you chose when every eclipse would happen - forever - when you set everything in motion.

[CF DolFan]

Y'all are making a false equivalence between predicting the future and creating it.

LOL ... pot calling the kettle black don't ya think. You keep saying if He created it He made them do it like it's a fact. It's your opinion based on nothing but your opinion. That's not what the Bible teaches so I do not believe that at all. He created us to be with Him, and gave us free will to love. Those that choose not to love Him and love only themselves can only do so because they have a choice.  If no one had the opportunity to say no then it wouldn't be a choice. It would be a robot and robots don't can't love.

[Spider-Dan]

CF, you believe that the people who choose to love God do so out of free will, right?  They aren't "robots."

If God knew billions of years ago exactly which humans would and would not choose to love him, why doesn't he just not create the ones that he already knows will choose to damn themselves to eternal torture?  That doesn't interfere with "free will" at all, nor does it create "robots."

Oh, right... we can't question God's plan anytime logic would require an answer to unnecessary suffering.

[Denver2]

Many secular philosophers don’t believe in free will as well, and i tend to agree with them .

[CF DolFan]

CF, you believe that the people who choose to love God do so out of free will, right?  They aren't "robots."

If God knew billions of years ago exactly which humans would and would not choose to love him, why doesn't he just not create the ones that he already knows will choose to damn themselves to eternal torture?  That doesn't interfere with "free will" at all, nor does it create "robots."

Oh, right... we can't question God's plan anytime logic would require an answer to unnecessary suffering.

You can't have one without the other. If Adam and Eve never had a choice to do something against God they would have never actually had a choice. From that time on evil has existed and suffering and hardship are a part of life in this fallen world. Jesus said that while bad things happen to everyone, including both the righteous and the unrighteous, believers can find peace and hope in him, as he has overcome the world. Jesus also taught that God can use suffering for good and that believers should not be surprised by trials. If everyone was good no one would grow.

[Spider-Dan]

You can't have one without the other.

You can't have one what without the other?  Be specific.

If Adam and Eve never had a choice to do something against God they would have never actually had a choice.

The point you have been making this whole time was specifically that just because God knows what your choice will be, that doesn't mean you weren't the one that made it freely.  So how is it "removing choice" to simply not create all the people who will make choices that get them sent to hell?

There are an infinite number of souls that have not been created, and at least some of them would make choices that get them to heaven.  God regularly decides which souls to create and which souls not to create, and God knows exactly which of those souls will choose hell and which will choose heaven.  Yet instead of choosing to create only the souls that will make it to heaven, he chooses a mix.  Why?

You can't use logic to defend that kind of obvious immorality.  "We can't question God's plan" is your only real answer.

[Dave Gray]

Making an accurate prediction based on known data is seeing into the future. 

I fundamentally disagree with this statement to the point that it's not worth discussing.