Speaking of bad top picks

[YoFuggedaboutit]

I thought I would pull JVides's post from another thread to make my point.  Here goes:

Jtex,

Marino's receivers his last few years: O.J. McDuffie (playing hurt), Lamar Thomas, Oronde Gadsden, Charles Jordan.  His running backs:  Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Cecil Collins, James Johnson.  His tight end:  Troy Drayton.

Let's compare that to the Cowboys:  Michael Irvin, Alvin Harper.  Emmitt Smith.  Jay Novacek.

It would've been much easier to argue your point if Marino had had some offensive talent with whom to play (look what happened to Favre this year when he was left with CFL talent.)  Jimmy Johnson's sin was that he selected sub par players with his # 1 draft picks.  Let's look at it this way: 
1995:  Shula selects Billy Milner.  Could've had:  Derrick Brooks
1996: Johnson selects Daryl Gardener.  Nice choice. B-U-T Could've had:  Eric Moulds, Ray Lewis.
1997: Yatil Green. (OY!!)  Could've had:  Antowain Smith or Corey Dillon.
1998: Traded down with Green Bay and got...John FRIGGIN Avery. (Lord have mercy)  Could've had: Randy FREAKING Moss or Flozell Adams.

Now, let's add Ray Lewis, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, and Derrick Brooks to the 1998 - 1999 Dolphins...do they lose 63-7 to the Jaguars?  Maybe they don't win the SuperBowl, but really, can you think of a team that more consistently blew their # 1 picks and somehow still managed to win more than they lost?  I can't.  That speaks to Marino's ability to do it on his own.

I agree 100%.  Now let's add a couple more.

1999-  Jimmy selects JJ Johnson after trading down.  Could've had Al Wilson

2001-  Wanny selects Jamar Fletcher.  Could've had Drew Brees, Fred Smoot or Reggie Wayne. 



Again, we can only speculate on how good the Dolphins would've been with all the "could've hads", but the fact is this:  With that type of track record, the Dolphins are extremely lucky they still had a winning team for a while.  Not a SINGLE ONE of those players drafted is currently on the Dolphins roster.  This pretty much proves that JJ was simply mediocre when drafting for the Dolphins.  He had just as many hits as misses.  And Wanny/Spielman...... let's not go there. 

[jtex316]

You know, every 32 teams in the NFL "passed up" on a ton of people.  That's the draft, people, that's how it goes.  For every person that the Dolphins passed up (Moss, Tomlinson, Palmer, etc...), the rest of the 31 teams passed up on everyone else.

[Brian Fein]

22 NFL teams passed on Dan Marino, too.

32 NFL teams passed on Zach Thomas - 3 times over!  Same for Tom Brady...

[Phishfan]

Brian threw out a Tom Brady reference and didn't bash him. It may be the end of the world as we know it.

[Brian Fein]

I'm tired today - I'll be back to form after a good night's sleep...

[JVides]

You know, every 32 teams in the NFL "passed up" on a ton of people.  That's the draft, people, that's how it goes.  For every person that the Dolphins passed up (Moss, Tomlinson, Palmer, etc...), the rest of the 31 teams passed up on everyone else.

Jtex, you're right about that.  My point in originally posting that statement was that Marino gets slammed by people for not being as great as we "Dolfans" say he is because he never won a ring.  But as you can see from the Dolphins drafts, the Phins managed to draft no one to help him in the first round except for:  Richmond Webb, Troy Vincent (who left after 3 years), Marco Coleman (ditto) and O.J. McDuffie.  Everyone else (over 17 years) didn't pan out too well.
As proof:
1984 - Jackie Shipp
1985 - Lorenzo Hampton
1986 - No # 1, Got John Offerdahl with their # 2
1987 - John Bosa
1988 - Eric Kumerow
1989 - Sammie Smith
1990 - Richmond Webb
1991 - Randal Hill (Traded to Arizona for a #1 in 1992)
1992 - Troy Vincent, Marco Coleman
1993 - O.J. McDuffie
1994 - Tim Bowens
1995 - Billy Milner
1996 - Daryl Gardener
1998 - John Avery.

These are ALL of the Marino era #1 picks.  You have 6 solid-to-very-good players (Webb, Vincent, Coleman, McDuffie, Bowens, Gardener), none of whom are or will be in the Hall of Fame, and 8 guys who didn't belong in the league (Shipp, Hampton, Bosa, Kumerow, Smith, Milner, Avery), including 6 straight years of suckage from 1984 to 1990.  It's no wonder the team never won it all under him.  For my next post, I'm going to compare all the 49er #1 picks during the Montana years. 

[Dave Gray]

Jtex, you're right about that. My point in originally posting that statement was that Marino gets slammed by people for not being as great as we "Dolfans" say he is because he never won a ring. But as you can see from the Dolphins drafts, the Phins managed to draft no one to help him in the first round except for: Richmond Webb, Troy Vincent (who left after 3 years), Marco Coleman (ditto) and O.J. McDuffie. Everyone else (over 17 years) didn't pan out too well.
As proof:
1984 - Jackie Shipp
1985 - Lorenzo Hampton
1986 - No # 1, Got John Offerdahl with their # 2
1987 - John Bosa
1988 - Eric Kumerow
1989 - Sammie Smith
1990 - Richmond Webb
1991 - Randal Hill (Traded to Arizona for a #1 in 1992)
1992 - Troy Vincent, Marco Coleman
1993 - O.J. McDuffie
1994 - Tim Bowens
1995 - Billy Milner
1996 - Daryl Gardener
1998 - John Avery.

These are ALL of the Marino era #1 picks. You have 6 solid-to-very-good players (Webb, Vincent, Coleman, McDuffie, Bowens, Gardener), none of whom are or will be in the Hall of Fame, and 8 guys who didn't belong in the league (Shipp, Hampton, Bosa, Kumerow, Smith, Milner, Avery), including 6 straight years of suckage from 1984 to 1990. It's no wonder the team never won it all under him. For my next post, I'm going to compare all the 49er #1 picks during the Montana years.

Good post.

I see where JTex is coming from, too, though.  It's hard to criticize the draft....over 17 years of crap -- okay criticize a bit....but you can't say "Oh, we could've gotten Moss..."  Every team does that every year, except the Vikings.

[JVides]

I see where JTex is coming from, too, though.  It's hard to criticize the draft....over 17 years of crap -- okay criticize a bit....but you can't say "Oh, we could've gotten Moss..."  Every team does that every year, except the Vikings

I see his point as well, though, really.  I remember like yesterday thinking "Reggie Wayne's there...GET HIM!!" the day the Dolphins selected Jamar Fletcher...It's one thing to say "they coulda had Kendall Simmons", it's quite another when they missed on a guy EVERYONE knew was going to be great. (Like Moss and Ray Lewis).  Most important, though, is the fact that the team drafted HORRIBLY for a stretch of 10 years, and not just in the first round.  Anyone remember Andrew Greene?  Eddie "The Earthquake" Blake? I could go on...and on...

[Dave Gray]

People forget why we didn't draft Moss.  Nobody doubted his talent, but he was a headcase.  He had serious character issues coming into the draft.  Of all teams, you should understand why the Dolphins (who'd had terrible first round luck) would want to pass on a receiver for a guy who was less risky.  ...and we weren't the only ones.

The only draft pick I really look back on and say WTF was Jamar Fletcher...not because he didn't turn out well, but because we needed a QB so bad -- Brees was there, and to draft a cornerback seemed downright moronic.  We already had Madison and Surtain...it seemed like you could've pushed that need for a fifth corner down a bit.

[The_Phinatic]

To me, it's not about passing on Moss.  It's about JJ trading down before he knew who was going to be on the board and then trying to convince us it was OK because Larry Shannon was better than Moss anyway! 

Vonnie Holliday was the one chosen at our pick by the way.  We traded with Green Bay not Minnesota.  The next pick was Moss, so we could have had him if we wanted him.  Instead, we got video gamer John Avery who is smaller than Vonnie Holliday's thigh.

JJ let the media convince him he really was a draft guru so he thought he would be clever and make a trade before the draft even started.  Nice move JJ. 

[JVides]

People forget why we didn't draft Moss.  Nobody doubted his talent, but he was a headcase.  He had serious character issues coming into the draft

The same thing was said about Warren Sapp, when he fell to the Buccaneers.  People worry about a guy because he tested positive for marijuana and compare him to a real headcase, like Lawrence Phillips.  I do understand why Johnson passed on Moss, but I never agreed with it, which is why I mentioned it.  Much like The_Phinatic, I was irked that Johnson traded with Green Bay before the draft even started, and then tried to say Larry Shannon would be better, and that John Avery was like "Emmitt Smith, only faster."

[JVides]

OK< as promised, a comparison to my earlier post, this time the 49ers of the early 80s through 1994:

1982 – No # 1
1983 – No # 1 , got Roger Craig with their # 2
1984 – Todd Shell
1985 – Jerry Rice
1986 – No # 1, got Tom Rathman, John Taylor, and Charles Haley in the 3rd and 4th rounds
1987 – Harris Barton, Terrence Flagler
1988 – No # 1
1989 – Keith DeLong
1990 – Dexter Carter
1991 – Ted Washington
1992 – Dana Hall
1993 – Dana Stubblefield, Todd Kelly
1994 – Bryant Young, William Floyd

So, we get: 1 Hall of famer (Jerry Rice), 5 Solid-to-great players (Barton, Washington, Stubblefield, Young, Floyd), a journeyman (Dexter Carter), and 4 busts (Shell, DeLong, Hall, Kelly).  More importantly, they hit on second-to-fourth round picks, like Craig, Haley, Taylor, Rathman; guys that were the "guts" of 4 of the 5 Super Bowl winning teams (along with Montana and Young, of course...)

[run_to_win]

To me, it's not about passing on Moss.  It's about JJ trading down before he knew who was going to be on the board ...

Correct.  I'm glad you cleared this up.  Due to a pre-draft trade down, Miami never had the chance to draft Moss.

[run_to_win]

Jtex, you're right about that.  My point in originally posting that statement was that Marino gets slammed by people for not being as great as we "Dolfans" say he is because he never won a ring.  But as you can see from the Dolphins drafts, the Phins managed to draft no one to help him in the first round except for:  Richmond Webb, Troy Vincent (who left after 3 years), Marco Coleman (ditto) and O.J. McDuffie.  Everyone else (over 17 years) didn't pan out too well.
As proof:
1984 - Jackie Shipp
1985 - Lorenzo Hampton
1986 - No # 1, Got John Offerdahl with their # 2
1987 - John Bosa
1988 - Eric Kumerow
1989 - Sammie Smith
1990 - Richmond Webb
1991 - Randal Hill (Traded to Arizona for a #1 in 1992)
1992 - Troy Vincent, Marco Coleman
1993 - O.J. McDuffie
1994 - Tim Bowens
1995 - Billy Milner
1996 - Daryl Gardener
1998 - John Avery.

These are ALL of the Marino era #1 picks.  You have 6 solid-to-very-good players (Webb, Vincent, Coleman, McDuffie, Bowens, Gardener), none of whom are or will be in the Hall of Fame, and 8 guys who didn't belong in the league (Shipp, Hampton, Bosa, Kumerow, Smith, Milner, Avery), including 6 straight years of suckage from 1984 to 1990.  It's no wonder the team never won it all under him.  For my next post, I'm going to compare all the 49er #1 picks during the Montana years. 

Too bad players aren't drafted after their careers so we all could have this type of hindsight.

Hampton and Smith both were rated highly, and Miami needed a running game.  (What they really needed was a change of philosophy but that's a different topic.)  Miami was the place RBs came to die during the Marino/Shula era.  Bobby Humphries, a budding super star for Denver, is evidence of that. 

Compare Hampton's 2nd season (his first as the feature back) to Ronnie Brown's first:

Hampton
186-830   4.5   9td, receiving 61-446 7.3 3
53% of team carries, 54% of team rushing yards

Ronnie Brown
207-907   4.4  4td, receiving 32-232 7.3   1
47% of team carries, 48% of team rushing yards

Sammie Smith was the big back that Shula wanted to complement Marino.  Who new he'd be a flake?  Was there any history of that at FSU?  It happens - Lawrence Phillips comes to mind.


Bosa made the All-rookie team before retiring due to an injury.  Kumerow.... he was eventually traded for a much needed solid starting CB, so, like Randall Hill, the choice was poor but not a total loss.

[Phishfan]

Bobby Humphries, a budding super star for Denver, is evidence of that. 

I think it may be a bit more accurate to blame Humphrey's demise on his cocaine arrest, the gunshot to his leg, and his kneee injuries.