To those here that live in Philly, I am sorry for your Loss.............

[run_to_win]

Although do support the death penalty, I believe it needs to used less and certainly needs to be administered more fairly.  The fact is a white person who kills a black person they are much less likely to be sentenced to death than vice versa.

Isn't this one of those stats that is misinterpreted?

It's like saying cops are more likely to be killed in a routine traffic stop than a shoot out.  It's true, more cops are killed in traffic stops than shoot outs ... because they perform about 10,000 traffic stops for each shoot out they're involved in.

Another one is that 90% of traffic accidents occur within 20 miles of your home.  That's because 90% of your driving occurs within 20 miles of your home.

[Defense54]

HAHA, wow you are naive. I am fully awae of how the system works, I have degree in criminal law, and my father is a retired officer, but thanks for the schpeil.
It is well documented that innocent people were sentenced to death, especially black men in the south, for decades.
Just the fact that you are alright with state sponsored murder of innocent people, just to get some revenge speaks volumes as to how and why innocent people, and the mentally retarded  have wound up on death row, and why we should not need it currently.
But hey why don't you read Beccaria, the guy who's writings on criminal courts and rights was adopted almost word for word by our founding fathers when they created our system, and see why he was against the death penalty, having seen it abused.

You are a moron. So's your dad for not blowing the load in the sink the night you were hatched. Why don't we just go back to the 17th century as well? Black men were killed then as well. Since when did the death Penalty issue even become a race issue? Because Anti Death Penalty activists don't have ANY OTHER foot to stand on. I just wish you people could try to make a point without going there just once. Just try to introduce facts instead of deflecting the issue with Race baiting.  It doesn't matter what color you are. If you kill with intent you need to die. Its that simple. If 10 Blacks commit Murder or 10 Whites so be it. 

[run_to_win]

Since when did the death Penalty issue even become a race issue? Because Anti Death Penalty activists don't have ANY OTHER foot to stand on. I just wish you people could try to make a point without going there just once. Just try to introduce facts instead of deflecting the issue with Race baiting. 

I reluctantly agree.

Hmmmm....

You know.... let me try something....

Since when did ______ even become a race issue? Because Anti _____ activists don't have ANY OTHER foot to stand on. I just wish you people could try to make a point without going there just once. Just try to introduce facts instead of deflecting the issue with Race baiting.

Is it just me or does that work for a lot of issues?

[Dave Gray]

Isn't this one of those stats that is misinterpreted?

No.

If it were the NUMBER of black men vs. white men executed, then yes, it would be.  But it's the discrepancy in  PERCENTAGE of death sentences between blacks and whites that's so large.

[run_to_win]

*political incorrectness warning*

No.

If it were the NUMBER of black men vs. white men executed, then yes, it would be.  But it's the discrepancy in  PERCENTAGE of death sentences between blacks and whites that's so large.

I have no dog in this fight.  I think all repeat offenders should be done away with.  I merely consider it taking out the trash.  However, I think we need to be careful about perpetuating/reinforcing the mentality of victimhood.


"Moreover, statistics show that the number of minorities who receive the death penalty is disproportionate to their composition in the general population." (link)
The racial composition of the general population is not the proper measuring stick.  I don't want to see a quota system for the death penalty based on the general population.  If there is going to be a racial quota for the death penalty it should be based on violent criminals.  We always seem to never hear about percentage of the general population and not the percentage of crimes committed in discussions such as these.  If those numbers are as equally disproportionate then yes, we have a problem.

Here's the first citation I found:

Recent data reveal little direct racial discrimination in the sentencing of those arrested and convicted of murder. (9) The abrogation of the death penalty for rape has eliminated a major source of racial discrimination. Concededly, some discrimination based on the race of murder victims may exist; yet, this discrimination affects criminal murder victimizers in an unexpected way. Murderers of whites are thought more likely to be executed than murderers of blacks. Black victims, then, are less fully vindicated than white ones. However, because most black murderers kill blacks, black murderers are spared the death penalty more often than are white murderers. They fare better than most white murderers (10). The motivation behind unequal distribution of the death penalty may well have been to discriminate against blacks, but the result has favored them. Maldistribution is thus a straw man for empirical as well as analytical reasons.

(link)

[Dave Gray]

I'm not suggesting a racial quota.

I don't support the death penalty for a multitude of reasons.  One of those reasons is that the systems is unbalanced towards the way it treats different races.  With something as serious as life/death, I don't think that's just.

But that's not really the only thing -- or even the driving factor for me.

I think that it's ineffective and not cost-efficient.  We can have that "real world vs. ideal" argument right here.  If you want to find a serial killer guilty and shoot him on the spot, that's one thing.  But it's not how the system works -- the appeals process and everything that goes into it costs more than it should.  But it does.

The biggest problem I have with the death penalty though is simply that there will be some number of mistakes.  And life/death is too serious an issue to allow for any mistakes, in my opinion.

[Defense54]

 

The biggest problem I have with the death penalty though is simply that there will be some number of mistakes.  And life/death is too serious an issue to allow for any mistakes, in my opinion.
 

Sorry. Once again NOTHING is perfect. But the Majority of People I have seen on death row and the 9 I was involved with ALL had written confessions, physical evidence , Video Tape and /or EyeWitnesses. They couldn't have been more slam dunk guilty. Just burying your head in the sand for an absolute perfect system is not a Valid Argument.  The Jury's I've seen were fairly picked by both sides and contained Men and Women as well as all races and age types.

As long as 12 Men and Women from all kinds of race  and backgrounds can come together unaminously and to the same conclusion........and then they can also select the death penalty over Life in prison........What more proof do you need?

[Dave Gray]

Just burying your head in the sand for an absolute perfect system is not a Valid Argument.

It's not valid because you don't deem it valid?

In something as serious as death, I think that the system has to be perfect.  Because it can't, and errors happen, I think you should err on the side of caution.  It seems pretty valid to me.  You don't have to agree, but damn...it's not like the concept doesn't make sense.

But there are lots of other reasons, too.  Above is just one of them.

- hypocrisy
- skewed towards class
- not cost effective
- against the very concept of government

[raptorsfan29]

I know people won't care too much about my opinion, but i am pro-death penalty for the most part, if we are 100% sure the person in question committed a murder, then i am for the death penalty, any less and i am bit skeptical.

on the original topic, I am thinking of being a police officer, i haven't decided if i want to work toward being local or state, i have been doing some research for being a Maine state trooper, i want to work toward being a detective.  this story proves the job is very dangerous.  But death doesn't really scare me so much, if it happens, oh well.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Bsmooth...save your typing and just argue with me.  This guy is beyond stupid.  Take his awesome arguing as an example.

[run_to_win]

I think that it's ineffective and not cost-efficient.  We can have that "real world vs. ideal" argument right here.

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=10589.msg109582#msg109582

But there are lots of other reasons, too. 

- hypocrisy
- skewed towards class
- not cost effective
- against the very concept of government

Can you elaborate on the hypocrisy and against the concept of government aspects?

As far as being skewed towards class, are death penalty eligible crimes skewed towards class as well?

[MaineDolFan]

Defense5499 - is there a reason why everything has to be such a hard stance with you?  I think I have lost count with you calling this person a moron, that person an idiot, someone should have jerked off into a sink.

That's an awful lot of anger towards people that disagree with you.  If you snap that easily on a message board I wonder what happens when someone doesn't cower at your feet when you're on patrol?

You were a prison guard, a bailiff and now a - well, I'm not sure.  I'm going to assume a patrolman.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but that doesn't make you an expert on the death penalty nor give you the right to be as 'on the attack' as you are in this thread.

First - direct comment to me: You said that you hope I never experience a violent loss.  When / if i do I will drop my "he'll meet his maker" stance and I would want the death penalty.  I say this - you do not know me nor what I have and have not experienced.  I HAVE experienced violent loss and I am willing to bet it's more than most people on this board.  I was eight years old and my best friend, standing next to me, took a stray bullet in the head.  He died in my arms while two older people tried to revive him.  By the time I was 15 years old I had lost four of my best friends to gang violence.  Wrong place at the wrong time.  My stance remains the same.

You have spoken about your experience, I'll tell you mine in case you do not know.  Officer.  CID.  18 years experience between my duty as an MP and CID.  I have had to work hand in hand with civilian police - people in the military break the law as well. 

Bosnia:  A fellow Nato officer is shot and killed by a sniper and we are able to quickly ascertain the location of the sniper.  My platoon secures the building and I secure the suspect.  A fellow officer had just been killed in cold blood.  He's a married man, left behind two kids and a wife.  Married less than three years.  I knew damn well his punishment would not fit the crime going on.  It would have been entirely too easy for me to take care of that situation myself and not one person would have questioned it.  I probably would have had a letter of accommodation placed into my file.  A highly decorated officer with three tours of duty in conflict areas securing a sniper suspect in hot  zone?  Above suspicion, plain and simple.

It's not up to me to decide.  Turns out the guy was killed in prison by a fellow inmate while awaiting trial.

My point?  Your experience with our lovely justice system doesn't qualify you as a person that can take such a hurtful stance with people that disagree with you.  I advise you to stand down and allow other people to have an opinion. 

At the end of the day - I'm a former cop.  I have family in law enforcement.  My sister in law is in the academy right now, she was hired on 10 March.  Many of my former unit members are cops.  Of the eight groomsmen in my wedding, four are state police detectives.  I understand anger towards losing a mate.  We just had two Portland cops come under fire during a routine traffic stop.  They returned fire, suspect killed.  I would have hated to see anything happen to those two young men.  I get your anger.  I understand that you are pro-death penalty and I also understand why.

Your actions towards those that disagree with you isn't acceptable.  You need to take a deep breath.  I don't know how long it's been since you left the academy but I am worried the socialization aspect of your training needs to be revisited.

It's a message board on a computer screen.  Take a step back and think about what you're saying on it.

[Dave Gray]

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=10589.msg109582#msg109582Can you elaborate on the hypocrisy and against the concept of government aspects?

Sure, I'll elaborate for you.  But it's not really a point I can argue -- it's just my opinion on things.

I think that as a society, we put a value on human life.  Even on things like abortion, where I'm pro-choice, I understand the battle.  I get the other side.  It's a gray area.  So, with that value placed on human life, and with the goal of having people not take that from others, I find it kind of hypocritical to take life as punishment for taking life.

Not a biblical man, I don't put value in the "eye for an eye" concept.

As for the "against government", I think that it's the government's job to protect its citizens, even those that don't follow the rules.  I think that killing its own citizens isn't the place of a government.

As far as being skewed towards class, are death penalty eligible crimes skewed towards class as well?

In terms of the numbers of cases, I'm sure they are.  But, again, talking about percentages, a wealthy, well-educated man is much less likely to get death than someone who might not have the same means, for exactly the same crime.  I realize that this is a slippery slope, and that the same can be said about prison sentences.  But, I feel that a death sentence is too serious to allow for this kind of uneven justice.

Another thing that I didn't mention before is that I think it actually creates more suffering.  The family of the one put to death -- they then become victims.  You can say that it's the fault of the one put to death, and you'd be correct, but it still creates more suffering.

[Defense54]

Bsmooth...save your typing and just argue with me.  This guy is beyond stupid.  Take his awesome arguing as an example.

You can tell your insecurity because you always seem to be asking for help and want to team up with others because your too stupid to make a valid point on your own.
Maybe if you tried to make a point instead of just attacks people would take you more seriously. Did you call that number? Nothing to be ashamed for needing help bro.

[Defense54]

It's not valid because you don't deem it valid?

In something as serious as death, I think that the system has to be perfect.  Because it can't, and errors happen, I think you should err on the side of caution.  It seems pretty valid to me.  You don't have to agree, but damn...it's not like the concept doesn't make sense.

But there are lots of other reasons, too.  Above is just one of them.

- hypocrisy
- skewed towards class
- not cost effective
- against the very concept of government

Its not Valid because its impossible. So choosing an impossible task as a defense is invalid.  As far as the Race baiting goes........it reminds me of an IA investigation on another officer in my dept a few years back.

He gave a Black woman a ticket for blowing through a stop sign. She and her Lawyer Husband thought they would investigate the officer instead of just admitting guilt. (He had her on Video Tape btw  ) They found that over 90% of his tickets issued were given to Black people and minorities and filed a Civil action against the Dept.

The Dept's defense was very simple. Yes he does seem to ticket people of color more often........but he is assigned in the North part of the county. The North Part iof the county is made up of mostly African Americans. Who do you think he is going to pull over!? 

The Cased was dismissed and they scrapped her Ticket just to make her go away.

My Point is most violent crimes don't happen in wealthy Suburban neighborhoods. Sure crimes of passion happen and whites commit Murder. But the Majority of Blacks killed in America today are Black on Black crimes. Should we let them go to even the score on white offenders? Or do we take it by a case by case basis and let the hammer drop where it may?

Using color as an excuse is a crutch that the American people are getting tired of. Its why Obama will never win the presidency of the United States of America if he wins the nomination. Too many people are tired of special treatment and reverse racism.

What you speak of reeks with the same sentiment.