Is Thomas Hall of Fame bound?

[Tepop84]

Jason taylor was named defensive player of the year once, and has good stats to go with his career. Ray lewis was named defensive player of the year twice, great stats, and won a super bowl.
zach thomas has good stats and nothing else.

[bsfins]

You: "[...] Zach hadn't sniffed the playoffs the last 7 years of  his career......"

You: "Then you can say Zach had a great 5 year run, not a great career...." (direct quote)

Feel free to explain how that has been "twisted."

Spider Losing in the Super Bowl is a credit on your resume?  Someone should inform Dan Marino. (Stupid Smart ass comment)
Which I replied:^ It is when Zach hadn't sniffed the playoffs the last 7 years of  his career......Gets cut from a 1-15 team,that goes to the playoffs the next year,after they cut him..... (Referring to the other people that Zach will get compared too)

Spider: "Jason Taylor's playoff drought was just as long, and MIA made the playoffs the year after he was gone, too."

Under the Post I was directing  this comment to Pappy

^^ Then you can say Zach had a great 5 year run, not a great career....Comparing Zach to Jason, doesn't fly either....Jason is running up the all time sack list 127.5 sacks 43 Forced fumbles,6 of those for Td's....Taylor has the stats,and the honor of Defensive player of the year,to add to the All Pros,and the Pro bowls on his HOF resume.


You know what's so sad about this whole conversation,I'm a Dolphins fan,and watched just about every game from 2000 till this past year.You guy's can't convince me (Who's just on the fence) that he's truly hall of fame worthy,Who's going to stand up for Zach in the Hall of fame committee? Who' going to convince the people that didn't see Zach all that often,the ones that covered other teams. I know Peter King is a fan of Zachs.

Look at the list of of candidates that didn't make the HOF this year, Chris Carter,Tim Brown Top 5 in career catches,yards,Td's etc etc. Neither first ballot,HOF...Ray Lewis,Junior Seau,and Brian Urlacher  (then I even mentioned Derrick Brooks) have already been mentioned as possible HOF candidates that are Zach's contemporaries...
Then look at all these guy's that didn't make it this year,but were finalist....
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2009/9/19/2010-preliminary-nominees---by-position/

Depending on who retires when,and who does get in off this list,ALL affect Zach getting in the HOF.

Which apparently you didn't read.....and quoted the First line,and keep trying to Hammer at the 5 years point,by inferring something I'm not....but ignored the rest...

Or percieved to be the best. That defense, much like the Ravens defense Lewis have the lucky fortune to play with was stacked with very good players, making it a lot easier to make plays and look like a stud.
Does Lewis stand out anymore than Zach if he was on a lesser defense?

Unfortunately the Defensive Players of the Year twice,for Singletary,and Lewis To Zach None...I agree it's perception,It's the Same one Urlacher will probably get because His team went to the Super bowl Despite a horrific QB.... The team was perceived to be a Great Defense that Bailed out the Shitty offense.

[JVides]

Zach Thomas will be a fringe Hall of Fame guy.  He may get in eventually.  He came in when Ray Lewis came in, and Lewis may be the best MLB ever.  He also played while Brian Urlacher played.  Basically, Thomas never had a stretch where people said "he is the best MLB in the league", while Jason Taylor did (at DE).  That's why Taylor is likely a shoo-in, and not Thomas.

Of course, I'm just a dumb fan, so I don't know how this will shake out.

[David Fulcher]

Listen, I'm not trying to compare Zach Thomas to Emmitt Smith.  But for you to say that Zach was "only" an All-Pro for 7 of his 13 years (as if that's some sort of insult) is a pathetic joke.  That's a far better ratio than most of the players in the HOF (and dramatically better than Jason Taylor, whom most of you seem to see as a shoo-in).

I concur with you, Spider-Dan.  When I saw Tepop post his comment about Zach "only" being First Team All-Pro 5 out of 13 years, I was thinking, "Seriously....seriously???!"  It's almost like a putdown or something.  While I understand that he is using that as part of his *argument* as to why Zach isn't Hall of Fame caliber, I just think the wording is messed-up, to say the least.  I can see where that might not be as exemplary as, like, one other player that is his peer and plays the same position as he (Lewis), but to comment on it like it's a garbage achievement?  That's beyond me. 

Besides the fact that I'm with bsmooth on Lewis and let's take it back to Singletary, too--Zach may have had some good to even great players around him (JT; Madison and Surtain some of the time), but he was never on an absolutely stacked defense like Singletary was a lot of his career and Lewis has been pretty much his whole career.  Just comparing Zach with Ray, the only time I'd give the 'Phins defense an edge was early into Zach's career, when JJ quickly built up a defensive-based Miami team...like '96-'98.  But, by '99, the year before the Ravens won the SB, they began to have a dominant defense, and that's more or less been the same since then (I'd probably give the '02 'Phins D an edge, too, because they were just dominant at times that season, for all the *good* that it did them, but that's still one season out of nine).  Not that Ray doesn't have a lot to do with that, because he does, but I also think it has a lot to do with Phil Savage and then Ozzie Newsome to follow with putting all that defensive talent around Ray, which is as important to a MLB as it is for any other defensive player on the field.

To answer the OP's question, though, I guess I'm like Lil' B.  Of course my heart wants to see him make it in, but I think it'll be a close call, if he even does.  I'd probably put it at about 40/60 also, because knowing myself, if I say 50/50, that means I think he's gonna make it regardless. 

[bsmooth]

Zach Thomas will be a fringe Hall of Fame guy.  He may get in eventually.  He came in when Ray Lewis came in, and Lewis may be the best MLB ever.  He also played while Brian Urlacher played.  Basically, Thomas never had a stretch where people said "he is the best MLB in the league", while Jason Taylor did (at DE).  That's why Taylor is likely a shoo-in, and not Thomas.

Of course, I'm just a dumb fan, so I don't know how this will shake out.

Ray Lewis and Urlacher have both benefitted from being part of the most dominant defense in the league. I do not think Lewis is the best MLB ever as has been stated he has been playing within a stacked defense for the majority of his career and his stats still are not that much better than Zach or Seau to justify that distinction of being the best ever.
Lewis is also lucky he played in a weak league leader wise or he would have missed at least a full season or more for his part in and covering up of the murder of two gay men by his "boys".

[Tepop84]

Ray Lewis and Urlacher have both benefitted from being part of the most dominant defense in the league. I do not think Lewis is the best MLB ever as has been stated he has been playing within a stacked defense for the majority of his career and his stats still are not that much better than Zach or Seau to justify that distinction of being the best ever.
Lewis is also lucky he played in a weak league leader wise or he would have missed at least a full season or more for his part in and covering up of the murder of two gay men by his "boys".

LOL, it is pretty homerific to think that zach is close to ray lewis.  Ray lewis makes his defenses great.

[bsmooth]

LOL, it is pretty homerific to think that zach is close to ray lewis.  Ray lewis makes his defenses great.

Stat wise which you are so fond of there is not a huge difference. Most of that difference could also be logically concluded from the fact Lewis had more opportunities due to the legendary defense's he played on. It is easy to look great when the offense cannot just focus on stopping you because the rest of the defense will eat you alive if you do.
Most of Zach's and Seau's careers they had offenses geared to send a lineman to tie them up and try and neutralize them. Lewis had dominant d lineman that took care of this problem for him.
Also Lewis's stats are not that much better to justify being called the greatest ever.
By not taking into account a players stats who got the opportunity to spend the majority of their career in a dominant offense or defense surround by all pro talent, you put players who had the misfortune of playing for bad teams at a significant disadvantage.
Also explain how I am being a homer when Zach was consistantly talked about being one of the top three lb's in the AFC with Seau and Lewis, and one of the top lb's in the league.
But your hatred of this team and its great players will not let you even remotely consider the fact that Lewis's career and fame got a huge bonus from playing in the what has been called the "greatest defense ever". But yeah you are right, that defense would have been utter shit if Zach or Seau had been the mlb instead of Lewis.

[Tepop84]

Bullshit there isn't a bunch of difference stat wise. You want to post retarded shit about how ray lewis' team had great defensive tackles that allowed lewis to make a bunch of tackles, yet according to pro-football-reference, ray lewis played in a 3-4 for 7 years while zach played in a 4-3 for almost his entire career. 

Ray Lewis 1349 solo tackles, zach 1109
ray lewis 28 interceptions , zach 17
ray lewis, 36.5 sacks, zach 20.5
zach led 16 to 14 in forced fumbles

ray lewis led 2-0 in being named the best defensive player of the year
ray lewis led 1-0 in being named super bowl mvp.

6-0 advantage to lewis in being named to the sporting news all-nfl team.
4-0 advantage to lewis in being named pro football writers all nfl team

[JVides]

Bsmooth, it's not that I don't think Thomas is worthy (I think he is), it's just that I read articles by HOF voters who say that one of their criteria for voting is "was he ever the best at his position?".  Zach was almost always top 3-5, for sure, but never the clear # 1.

Also, as Tepop said, Lewis has played in a 3-4 for a large part of his career.  I may be mistaken, but 3-4 ILBs are not supposed to go sideline to sideline like 4-3 MLBs do.  Again, I could be wrong there.  Either way, a 3-4 ILB has another ILB gunning for the same tackles, so I'd imagine that a 3-4 ILB's tackle stats would be lower to a comparable 4-3 MLB's.

[Tepop84]

Let's not tilt my view too much. Zach was a great player, and the team was lucky to have him.  He just isn't a hall of famer, and not in the same class as ray lewis.

[Pappy13]

Let's not tilt my view too much. Zach was a great player, and the team was lucky to have him.  He just isn't a hall of famer, and not in the same class as ray lewis.

On the other hand Ray Lewis isn't loved by the media the way that Zach Thomas was either.  Ray Lewis had a bit of a mean streak off the field that rubbed some of the voters the wrong way and then there is the off-field issues that Ray has had.  Zach is squeeky clean and always made himself available to the press regardless of whether the Dolphins won or lost.  Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter, just doesn't know how the voting for the Hall works.  It's not ALL just about stats.

[Tepop84]

On the other hand Ray Lewis isn't loved by the media the way that Zach Thomas was either.  Ray Lewis had a bit of a mean streak off the field that rubbed some of the voters the wrong way and then there is the off-field issues that Ray has had.  Zach is squeeky clean and always made himself available to the press regardless of whether the Dolphins won or lost.  Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter, just doesn't know how the voting for the Hall works.  It's not ALL just about stats.

LOLLLLLLL.  so you think there is a chance that ray lewis doesn't get in the hall of fame, while zach does? 

[Pappy13]

Nope.  But they BOTH might.

I think a lot of you are using the wrong standard when comparing Zach to other Hall of Famers.  Sure a guy like Ray Lewis is a shoe-in, but that's not the only guy to compare him to. 

Question:  Name the most recent LB to be inducted into the Hall of fame?
Answer: Derrick Thomas

Compare resumes of Derrick Thomas with Zach Thomas and then tell me that Zach doesn't belong there.  I'm not saying Zach's it's necessarily BETTER than Derrick's, but it's at least as good as.  Derrick was never a defensive MVP.  Derrick was never on a SB team, the closest he got was a Championship game they lost 30-13 and he had 3 tackles.  His teams were never considered defensive powerhouses.  He was selected 1st team all-pro 3 times and 2nd team 3 times.  Yeah, he had 126.5 career sacks, but only 1 INT for his career.

So what does Derrick Thomas have that puts him in the hall?  Well mostly that he died tragically in 2000 in a car crash.  Would he have gotten in on his stats alone?  Maybe.  Voters put him in the hall to honor him and rightly so.  My point is not that Derrick Thomas shouldn't be in the hall, but rather that it's more than stats that get you there.  It's the voters that put you there.

[Tepop84]

126 sacks, 41 forced fumbles and 3 safeties. I am not sure you can count all-pro since it appears that there is only 1 ROLB chosen, and atleast 2 MLB chosen.

[Pappy13]

Nice try.  They don't vote for ROLB.  They vote 2 inside and 2 outside.  Which side is not important.